Do You Really Need To Run Windows 11 On Intel CPUs??
video description
What you need is a complex program that actually has different types of threads, for which the Thread Director predict different execution efficiency on P- and E-cores. In real world this translates to having threads that skew towards SIMD and skew towards scalar, as Gracemont vector execution is quite weak. And very important they have to run at the same time, otherwise there is no scheduling decision to make! These conditions limit a lot the current software/benchmarks where you would expect a difference, and a simpler scheduler without Thread Director can get the same result most of the time.
Date: 2023-01-01
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Comments and reviews: 13
Sinshine
I genuinely hate Windows 11. The only reason I stuck with it for a while was the promised Android integration but even that one ended up on Windows 10 in the end. I did go back to Windows 10 after a few months because the Android integration wasn't accessible for forever here in Germany and I got fed up with all the issues I had with Windows 11. The only thing that vastly improved was HDR starting with the first preview build but after a few months an update destroyed that as well. But when I went back to Windows 10, I found out that many of the things I hated about Windows 11 suddenly also were in Windows 10. Things like not being able to move individual instances of windows/programms around in the task bar independent from other instances.
So basically, I now hate Windows 11 AND Windows 10 and as a user of a 49 inch ultrawide monitor, the centered task bar just is more convenient and I'm back on Windows 11 for it despite everything taking more clicks and longer mouse paths in 11 compared to 10.
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I genuinely hate Windows 11. The only reason I stuck with it for a while was the promised Android integration but even that one ended up on Windows 10 in the end. I did go back to Windows 10 after a few months because the Android integration wasn't accessible for forever here in Germany and I got fed up with all the issues I had with Windows 11. The only thing that vastly improved was HDR starting with the first preview build but after a few months an update destroyed that as well. But when I went back to Windows 10, I found out that many of the things I hated about Windows 11 suddenly also were in Windows 10. Things like not being able to move individual instances of windows/programms around in the task bar independent from other instances.
So basically, I now hate Windows 11 AND Windows 10 and as a user of a 49 inch ultrawide monitor, the centered task bar just is more convenient and I'm back on Windows 11 for it despite everything taking more clicks and longer mouse paths in 11 compared to 10.
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Robert
I have the IGU enabled, One thing I noticed is that the IGPU is the primary GPU on a system level. I have an Aida64 Sensor panel on the IGPU and My main monitor on the DGPU. this was tested with both an RX 6600 and a Arc A770. Even though in the bios I told it the PCIe was the primary card this just meant that if I only had a monitor on the dGPU I would get the Bios there. As soon as I plugged anything into the iGPU The bios was always on it. Once in windows obviously you can change it out. Also if you run a windowed games if you move it between different monitors you can watch in task manager which gpu is under load.
Since most people are running the iGPU on with nothing plugged in, normally most do not see how the system utilizes it. There is nothing like running a game for the first time where it ignores which is the primary display and watching it pop on the sensor panel.
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I have the IGU enabled, One thing I noticed is that the IGPU is the primary GPU on a system level. I have an Aida64 Sensor panel on the IGPU and My main monitor on the DGPU. this was tested with both an RX 6600 and a Arc A770. Even though in the bios I told it the PCIe was the primary card this just meant that if I only had a monitor on the dGPU I would get the Bios there. As soon as I plugged anything into the iGPU The bios was always on it. Once in windows obviously you can change it out. Also if you run a windowed games if you move it between different monitors you can watch in task manager which gpu is under load.
Since most people are running the iGPU on with nothing plugged in, normally most do not see how the system utilizes it. There is nothing like running a game for the first time where it ignores which is the primary display and watching it pop on the sensor panel.
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Leo
Surprising results! Thank you for testing this. So it seems that Microsoft updated the scheduler in Windows 10 at some point but didn't bother to actually tell anyone? That's frustrating, even if the outcome is good and we can choose between AMD and Intel based on merit and pricing rather than worrying about having to use an OS with cursed Win32 scrollbars, edit controls, start menu and taskbar.
The problems I'd heard about in the past were usually things like single/low-thread processes getting stuck on the E-cores when nothing was using the P-cores. If that kind of thing is no longer happening in Win10 then that's great, and Win11 can continue to rot for all I care. I hope MS hire some competent UI/UX designers for Windows 12 as something will force us to upgrade at some point.
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Surprising results! Thank you for testing this. So it seems that Microsoft updated the scheduler in Windows 10 at some point but didn't bother to actually tell anyone? That's frustrating, even if the outcome is good and we can choose between AMD and Intel based on merit and pricing rather than worrying about having to use an OS with cursed Win32 scrollbars, edit controls, start menu and taskbar.
The problems I'd heard about in the past were usually things like single/low-thread processes getting stuck on the E-cores when nothing was using the P-cores. If that kind of thing is no longer happening in Win10 then that's great, and Win11 can continue to rot for all I care. I hope MS hire some competent UI/UX designers for Windows 12 as something will force us to upgrade at some point.
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Peter
Sadly Intel even failed to support Linux for no good reason. There is a system called acpi which has one simple purpose: the CPU-company can tell which cores are the good ones and which ones are the lesser ones. This sytem has been used by both Intel and AMD for a long time for many generations. According to the experts, if Intel would simply have used the acpi-table then all program on Linux which require a high CPU-load would first recruit all the big-boy-cores before recruiting the baby-cores. But Intel did not use acpi for this generation, at least until a few months ago (no update since then for me), so now you risk starting your game and it using the babycores. Fun. So for now AMD for Linux for me.
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Sadly Intel even failed to support Linux for no good reason. There is a system called acpi which has one simple purpose: the CPU-company can tell which cores are the good ones and which ones are the lesser ones. This sytem has been used by both Intel and AMD for a long time for many generations. According to the experts, if Intel would simply have used the acpi-table then all program on Linux which require a high CPU-load would first recruit all the big-boy-cores before recruiting the baby-cores. But Intel did not use acpi for this generation, at least until a few months ago (no update since then for me), so now you risk starting your game and it using the babycores. Fun. So for now AMD for Linux for me.
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grizzlee
I didn't like Windows 11 at first. I waited for a lot of the early bugs to get worked out. While I don't notice a huge performance gain or anything, I do have more stability when there is new drivers or new major updates. My guess is Microsoft is giving priority to Win 11 vs Win 10, because as much as I like Win 10, I would occasionally have issues with a Win 10 major upgrade, (i.e. from 21H2 to 22H2, etc.). It would be a device that was working great all of a sudden got quirky. It was usually fixed within a week or two when the product manufacturer or MS came out with an updated driver. While Win 11 is not immune to this, it happens less, (as I said, I think because MS gives Win 11 priority).
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I didn't like Windows 11 at first. I waited for a lot of the early bugs to get worked out. While I don't notice a huge performance gain or anything, I do have more stability when there is new drivers or new major updates. My guess is Microsoft is giving priority to Win 11 vs Win 10, because as much as I like Win 10, I would occasionally have issues with a Win 10 major upgrade, (i.e. from 21H2 to 22H2, etc.). It would be a device that was working great all of a sudden got quirky. It was usually fixed within a week or two when the product manufacturer or MS came out with an updated driver. While Win 11 is not immune to this, it happens less, (as I said, I think because MS gives Win 11 priority).
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itech
I just switched to Windows 11 a few week ago, on my new 13700k build.
I have heard many hate about Win11, but personally I found that I like the Win 11 GUI more than Win 10.
Every thing is very similar, so I get familar with Win 11 within minutes. I have a 43 big monitor, so task bar icon in the middle make more sense than on the side. I also like the dark mode Task Manager which are not available in Win 10.
The only bug I found in Win 11 is the shortcut DisplaySwitch.exe /external to switch monitor in a single click don't work anymore.
The only solution I found on internet is to copy the DisplaySwitch.exe from Win 10 to fix the problem.
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I just switched to Windows 11 a few week ago, on my new 13700k build.
I have heard many hate about Win11, but personally I found that I like the Win 11 GUI more than Win 10.
Every thing is very similar, so I get familar with Win 11 within minutes. I have a 43 big monitor, so task bar icon in the middle make more sense than on the side. I also like the dark mode Task Manager which are not available in Win 10.
The only bug I found in Win 11 is the shortcut DisplaySwitch.exe /external to switch monitor in a single click don't work anymore.
The only solution I found on internet is to copy the DisplaySwitch.exe from Win 10 to fix the problem.
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Cyanide
I'd recommend running windows 11 through LoveWindowsAgain , stripping out the extra nonsense that 11 added that take up resources and try again. At that point, the difference in the scheduler would be a little more apparent. That is, unless they ported the updated cpu scheduler to windows 10 recently. If that's the case, they should update the scheduler in windows 7 for the 12th gen and updated ryzen chips. With the lower required resources of 7, and an updated scheduler, amd and intel both would be significantly faster than they are currently in the 10/11 environment. Even the microsecond transactions with the tpm would be eliminated.
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I'd recommend running windows 11 through LoveWindowsAgain , stripping out the extra nonsense that 11 added that take up resources and try again. At that point, the difference in the scheduler would be a little more apparent. That is, unless they ported the updated cpu scheduler to windows 10 recently. If that's the case, they should update the scheduler in windows 7 for the 12th gen and updated ryzen chips. With the lower required resources of 7, and an updated scheduler, amd and intel both would be significantly faster than they are currently in the 10/11 environment. Even the microsecond transactions with the tpm would be eliminated.
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Paul
22h2 was a big update for 11. I rolled it back twice due to serious performance issues. They finally released enough patches to fix the performance and I actually see much better frame times and smoother gaming now. There are some critical fixes coming in patches in January and February. If you did this test on 22h2 a few months ago you would see windows 10 being much better across the board. I don't mind 11. The start menu sucks but that's it. They need to let you completely remove the recommend section.
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22h2 was a big update for 11. I rolled it back twice due to serious performance issues. They finally released enough patches to fix the performance and I actually see much better frame times and smoother gaming now. There are some critical fixes coming in patches in January and February. If you did this test on 22h2 a few months ago you would see windows 10 being much better across the board. I don't mind 11. The start menu sucks but that's it. They need to let you completely remove the recommend section.
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jawndoekck
Gordon is legit mad he had to do pointless work. I'm mad cause Adam didn't bother wearing a non-wrinkled shirt. Like seriously my dude it's not hard to put a shirt in the bathroom while you shower causing the steam to effortlessly remove the wrinkles from the shirt. FYI, don't throw your money away by upgrading your CPU every single time there is a new release, because the benefits of such simply don't outweigh the cash you're throwing down the drain. Still love your work! Happy New Years!
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Gordon is legit mad he had to do pointless work. I'm mad cause Adam didn't bother wearing a non-wrinkled shirt. Like seriously my dude it's not hard to put a shirt in the bathroom while you shower causing the steam to effortlessly remove the wrinkles from the shirt. FYI, don't throw your money away by upgrading your CPU every single time there is a new release, because the benefits of such simply don't outweigh the cash you're throwing down the drain. Still love your work! Happy New Years!
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Michel
Did you actually test frametimes in games? Apparently (I have a 9900k, so I only can echo what I've heard/read) win10 has issues with the hybrid tech on the 12th Gen+ where some threads go to the Efficiency cores, causing a stutter but not a drop in framerate. Also, did you measure the power draw of the system, maybe more gains there because of better scheduling to Efficiency cores? (save money on electricity now that it has become so much more expensive :( :P :) )
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Did you actually test frametimes in games? Apparently (I have a 9900k, so I only can echo what I've heard/read) win10 has issues with the hybrid tech on the 12th Gen+ where some threads go to the Efficiency cores, causing a stutter but not a drop in framerate. Also, did you measure the power draw of the system, maybe more gains there because of better scheduling to Efficiency cores? (save money on electricity now that it has become so much more expensive :( :P :) )
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AramisTech
I tried liking windows 11 but it just feels like a half baked OS compared to Windows 10 which seems to be more complete. Just the way the start menu works and the taskbar shows that instead of improving on Windows 10 they actually went backwards not forward. The rounded corners and a few little things are nice but not enough for me to really switch.
Probably in 1 year they will have fixed alot of the issues and it will feel more completed
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I tried liking windows 11 but it just feels like a half baked OS compared to Windows 10 which seems to be more complete. Just the way the start menu works and the taskbar shows that instead of improving on Windows 10 they actually went backwards not forward. The rounded corners and a few little things are nice but not enough for me to really switch.
Probably in 1 year they will have fixed alot of the issues and it will feel more completed
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Not
This frustrates me beyond words....I have 2, 12th gen systems that I installed windows 11 on 8 months ago because I was told I had to according to microsoft to take advantage of the e cores. Windows 11 drive me bonkers from the loss of the start bars, the 2-4 extra clicks to do something, the crappy search feature, and all the small changes they made just to make changes. Looks like I am spending the day reinstalling windows 10
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This frustrates me beyond words....I have 2, 12th gen systems that I installed windows 11 on 8 months ago because I was told I had to according to microsoft to take advantage of the e cores. Windows 11 drive me bonkers from the loss of the start bars, the 2-4 extra clicks to do something, the crappy search feature, and all the small changes they made just to make changes. Looks like I am spending the day reinstalling windows 10
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Justice
A test worth testing might be to have something rendering in the background, like Blender or a video encode, and then at the same time, have a game running in the foreground, and play a game. Perhaps benchmarking the game, while something is rendering in the background, and see if there is a difference betwee Win10 and Win11, that will really show if Thread Director is working the same or not between OS's.
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A test worth testing might be to have something rendering in the background, like Blender or a video encode, and then at the same time, have a game running in the foreground, and play a game. Perhaps benchmarking the game, while something is rendering in the background, and see if there is a difference betwee Win10 and Win11, that will really show if Thread Director is working the same or not between OS's.
reply
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