Digital Foundry Talks Advanced Technologies, Hardware Myths & More The Full Nerd ep. 280
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Date: 2023-11-22
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Comments and reviews: 15
Eternalduoae
51:40 The problem with this discussion that the name of the setting doesn't mean anything is that historically, for the vast majority of games, they have. You went from potato to good looking, generally.
Now, if games want to change that then they need to communicate it better or start using different nomenclature because consumer expectations are ALREADY set. You can't just re-define something that is already socially defined. It doesn't happen!
The other problem is that developers are releasing these requirements charts. If the name of the setting means /nothing/ then there us no point to releasing those (relatively) detailed charts because the consumer has no idea what is being discussed!!
What devs need to start doing is releasing comparison screenshots or videos so that consumers know what the visual quality of each of those settings looks like...
Or, if they're not willing to put in the work, just put out minimum and recommended requirements and be done with it.
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51:40 The problem with this discussion that the name of the setting doesn't mean anything is that historically, for the vast majority of games, they have. You went from potato to good looking, generally.
Now, if games want to change that then they need to communicate it better or start using different nomenclature because consumer expectations are ALREADY set. You can't just re-define something that is already socially defined. It doesn't happen!
The other problem is that developers are releasing these requirements charts. If the name of the setting means /nothing/ then there us no point to releasing those (relatively) detailed charts because the consumer has no idea what is being discussed!!
What devs need to start doing is releasing comparison screenshots or videos so that consumers know what the visual quality of each of those settings looks like...
Or, if they're not willing to put in the work, just put out minimum and recommended requirements and be done with it.
reply
dodo7ger
50:00 I think its really not about how much VRAM or what kind of GPU you need, its much more about making the settings clearer for the user or even better, automatically set it to something good. Example: A friend who owns a 3060 started playing Alan Wake 2. He set everything to the maximum because He has a good GPU and then it obviously didnt run well, but instead of turning the settings a bit down, he says to me Nah, it should run. I just returned it and bought it on PS5 and play it there. Anyone here probably knows that what he actually really did there is putting the settings to low...
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50:00 I think its really not about how much VRAM or what kind of GPU you need, its much more about making the settings clearer for the user or even better, automatically set it to something good. Example: A friend who owns a 3060 started playing Alan Wake 2. He set everything to the maximum because He has a good GPU and then it obviously didnt run well, but instead of turning the settings a bit down, he says to me Nah, it should run. I just returned it and bought it on PS5 and play it there. Anyone here probably knows that what he actually really did there is putting the settings to low...
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Wobbo
To be fair Doom 3 is actually a GOOD example of low end scaling, Carmack himself said it was actually designed around Geforce 3, which was cutting edge in 2001 but actually out of date by 2004. Then again the original target was for 640x480 60hz, and resolution expectations were higher, so it was still considered heavy to run when it released. But the tech itself is efficient and scalable enough to run in standalone VR on cell phone GPUs today (shout outs Team Beef!). The discussion of CRTs and the point Alex made was very apt.
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To be fair Doom 3 is actually a GOOD example of low end scaling, Carmack himself said it was actually designed around Geforce 3, which was cutting edge in 2001 but actually out of date by 2004. Then again the original target was for 640x480 60hz, and resolution expectations were higher, so it was still considered heavy to run when it released. But the tech itself is efficient and scalable enough to run in standalone VR on cell phone GPUs today (shout outs Team Beef!). The discussion of CRTs and the point Alex made was very apt.
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Wobbo
Alex is right about the vocal minority. The userbase of PC Gaming overwhelmingly buy RTX or DX12 Compatible AMD cards, PC Gamers want raytracing and other cutting edge tech. More than 10% of PC Gamers have an rtx40 card already. The whining on social media doesn't reflect the real world revealed preferences of gamers. Almost 2/3rds of PC Gamers could play a raytracing only game today. Nvidia have not only put out demos they've funded entire GAMEs in RTX like Minecraft and Quake 2!
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Alex is right about the vocal minority. The userbase of PC Gaming overwhelmingly buy RTX or DX12 Compatible AMD cards, PC Gamers want raytracing and other cutting edge tech. More than 10% of PC Gamers have an rtx40 card already. The whining on social media doesn't reflect the real world revealed preferences of gamers. Almost 2/3rds of PC Gamers could play a raytracing only game today. Nvidia have not only put out demos they've funded entire GAMEs in RTX like Minecraft and Quake 2!
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POV
I think the difference in acceptance of DLSS between switch people and PC people is down to PC people knowing that it is a Band-Aid being sold to us because hardware vendors can't give us improved native raster gen over gen. It's a fugazi. And nobody should accept that. If switch-type people are on board, then all the more reason to not accept it on PC. Let the undiscriminating keep it on their handhelds. Why am I paying the same or more for some algorithmic hallucination?
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I think the difference in acceptance of DLSS between switch people and PC people is down to PC people knowing that it is a Band-Aid being sold to us because hardware vendors can't give us improved native raster gen over gen. It's a fugazi. And nobody should accept that. If switch-type people are on board, then all the more reason to not accept it on PC. Let the undiscriminating keep it on their handhelds. Why am I paying the same or more for some algorithmic hallucination?
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MrVipitis
As for AI rendering shaders , I am writing my undergrad thesis on using language models to generate shadercode by implementing metrics to evaluate their quality.
I can totally see a FrameGen 2.0 where you get a low res classical frame and then predict the next frame based on just some information like how the geometry shifted, and then render the generated frame BEFORE a classical frame would have been rendered. Reduce the frametimes (and incrase the framerate).
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As for AI rendering shaders , I am writing my undergrad thesis on using language models to generate shadercode by implementing metrics to evaluate their quality.
I can totally see a FrameGen 2.0 where you get a low res classical frame and then predict the next frame based on just some information like how the geometry shifted, and then render the generated frame BEFORE a classical frame would have been rendered. Reduce the frametimes (and incrase the framerate).
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drizz786
Great show but about physics ask team green about buying the bfg brand ( and sat on it for 3 years) who had a a physics card which even now would embarrass high end pcs. Physx is a pale shadow of where it could be. Yes am still bitter all these yrs later, bfg we're never going to cause team green a problem, but hey money talks.
Rant over, keep up the great work.
Ps also native scaling fan rather than pretend blury ghosting upscaling just my tuppence worth.
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Great show but about physics ask team green about buying the bfg brand ( and sat on it for 3 years) who had a a physics card which even now would embarrass high end pcs. Physx is a pale shadow of where it could be. Yes am still bitter all these yrs later, bfg we're never going to cause team green a problem, but hey money talks.
Rant over, keep up the great work.
Ps also native scaling fan rather than pretend blury ghosting upscaling just my tuppence worth.
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residentCJ
DLSS is controversial on PC because native Res. was forever a predictor for certain amount of Quality.
Nearly NOBODY complains about DLAA or AA in general. If theyve pushed that more, nobody would complain about nvidia but about the Game Producers like back in the Days Crysis.
NV and AMD are misleading People all the time with FSR and DLSS charts of games that would run slower without it.
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DLSS is controversial on PC because native Res. was forever a predictor for certain amount of Quality.
Nearly NOBODY complains about DLAA or AA in general. If theyve pushed that more, nobody would complain about nvidia but about the Game Producers like back in the Days Crysis.
NV and AMD are misleading People all the time with FSR and DLSS charts of games that would run slower without it.
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Mauro
Wow, epic crossover episode! Haha didn't expect to see Alex here but it's definite a welcomed surprise. Such a treat to have him talk about all of these new technologies and he makes such a great job of bringing it down to the masses lol
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Wow, epic crossover episode! Haha didn't expect to see Alex here but it's definite a welcomed surprise. Such a treat to have him talk about all of these new technologies and he makes such a great job of bringing it down to the masses lol
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James
Upscaling is a setting like any other and if you are really sensitive to sharpness (like me personally) you are gonna wanna run low settings at native over high settings upscaled. It never looks the same in front of a 1440p PC monitor.
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Upscaling is a setting like any other and if you are really sensitive to sharpness (like me personally) you are gonna wanna run low settings at native over high settings upscaled. It never looks the same in front of a 1440p PC monitor.
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BINARYGOD
As a PC-only guy, Alex Battaglia is the worst kind of PC person. No, I don't feel explaining - except one: but he sometimes pulls PS fanboy logic and talking points.
Get f cked, and lose the pro/anti fanboy stuff otherwise.
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As a PC-only guy, Alex Battaglia is the worst kind of PC person. No, I don't feel explaining - except one: but he sometimes pulls PS fanboy logic and talking points.
Get f cked, and lose the pro/anti fanboy stuff otherwise.
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Old
It's depressing all the focus on visuals but no one addressing the pick questions of Fun, creativity and game play. Most modern games are inferior to or just remasters off old stuff.
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It's depressing all the focus on visuals but no one addressing the pick questions of Fun, creativity and game play. Most modern games are inferior to or just remasters off old stuff.
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NulJern
I love schnitzel, great name. Pc world is ok xD RT is not worth the fps tanking for most people. That's why people don't like it.
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I love schnitzel, great name. Pc world is ok xD RT is not worth the fps tanking for most people. That's why people don't like it.
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Michael
This thumbnail broke my brain for a minute! My two favorite shows by far, this is awesome, I can't wait to watch after work!
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This thumbnail broke my brain for a minute! My two favorite shows by far, this is awesome, I can't wait to watch after work!
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Ginge
Sea of Thieves has a bazar naming scheme for graphics settings and it's terrible. I'd rather just see Ultra and know I'm on it.
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Sea of Thieves has a bazar naming scheme for graphics settings and it's terrible. I'd rather just see Ultra and know I'm on it.
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