Why Vendors Are Testing CAMM2 On Desktop
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Date: 2024-06-11
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Comments and reviews: 20
jonevansauthor
It seems a lot more practical for cooling than individual RAM sticks with built in heatsinks that can't really do that much. Given the form factor, I anticipate there will be AIOs for this if it comes to desktop at scale. It should be super easy, barely an inconvenience to cool and you should be in full control of that. If it's viable for mini-PCs as well as desktops in the same form factor, that'll really help with scale.
It's obvious that the majority of PCs should actually be mini-PC form factor from now on (slightly larger than the current standard, because they should have more storage space but also a 120/140mm fan in there). Normal office, web browsing, and even some casual gaming can be accomplished on the current mini-PC form factor so there's zero reason to use larger machines for non-gamers and people with normal professional workloads (which is Office, and Chrome etc, not media editing and AI).
People seem to be saying we still need a laptop and a desktop version for some reason, and that's a pity because the more devices it goes in the better. But, you could potentially see anything that fits in a thin and light laptop, also in professional tablet, or even phones. So even if it's still 2 form factors for laptop and desktop, there are devices that could use it that currently don't.
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It seems a lot more practical for cooling than individual RAM sticks with built in heatsinks that can't really do that much. Given the form factor, I anticipate there will be AIOs for this if it comes to desktop at scale. It should be super easy, barely an inconvenience to cool and you should be in full control of that. If it's viable for mini-PCs as well as desktops in the same form factor, that'll really help with scale.
It's obvious that the majority of PCs should actually be mini-PC form factor from now on (slightly larger than the current standard, because they should have more storage space but also a 120/140mm fan in there). Normal office, web browsing, and even some casual gaming can be accomplished on the current mini-PC form factor so there's zero reason to use larger machines for non-gamers and people with normal professional workloads (which is Office, and Chrome etc, not media editing and AI).
People seem to be saying we still need a laptop and a desktop version for some reason, and that's a pity because the more devices it goes in the better. But, you could potentially see anything that fits in a thin and light laptop, also in professional tablet, or even phones. So even if it's still 2 form factors for laptop and desktop, there are devices that could use it that currently don't.
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pcworld
This is why marketing is not who you ask for tech answers. Traditional DIMMs are facing a performance wall, and simply will not support the speeds needed in the near future. It is that simple. It is a signaling issue. But asking marketing is like a wild ride into nowhere. And since everyone is trying to go tabloid on us, it is basically a screaming mess about everything. As for capacity, it is a real challange for CAMM2, and it is not like we have a ton of real estate, it is more that even ATX as a form factor, is coming to an end. Again, signaling. There is also a constant trend, that makers do not see any real usage for PCIE slots, and since we are hitting a wall with slots for ram, will we as well for PCIE It is all there, on the floor, but everyone is just trying to scream the most, while nobody talk real tech. As in: What does this signaling wall actually mean, and the constant lowering of voltage and this insane power consumption, what does it all mean When will we need to extend ATX Does not seem that far down the road, to be honest, and the extension, since signaling is the issue, will not be what people discuss at all. Workstation is probably first out, since they will need two CAMM2 modules. It is just bloody obvious where it should go.
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This is why marketing is not who you ask for tech answers. Traditional DIMMs are facing a performance wall, and simply will not support the speeds needed in the near future. It is that simple. It is a signaling issue. But asking marketing is like a wild ride into nowhere. And since everyone is trying to go tabloid on us, it is basically a screaming mess about everything. As for capacity, it is a real challange for CAMM2, and it is not like we have a ton of real estate, it is more that even ATX as a form factor, is coming to an end. Again, signaling. There is also a constant trend, that makers do not see any real usage for PCIE slots, and since we are hitting a wall with slots for ram, will we as well for PCIE It is all there, on the floor, but everyone is just trying to scream the most, while nobody talk real tech. As in: What does this signaling wall actually mean, and the constant lowering of voltage and this insane power consumption, what does it all mean When will we need to extend ATX Does not seem that far down the road, to be honest, and the extension, since signaling is the issue, will not be what people discuss at all. Workstation is probably first out, since they will need two CAMM2 modules. It is just bloody obvious where it should go.
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nathangamble125
I'm not sure if I'm a contrarian, but I don't think I want CAMM2.
DIMMs give you a cheaper upgrade option. If you have a motherboard with 4 slots, you can buy 2 modules, and then add 2 more modules when you need an upgrade. With CAMM2, you need to remove your old RAM in order to increase your capacity. In theory you can resell your old CAMM2, but in practice, how many people will actually do that I suspect CAMM2s will generate more ewaste as a result.
Getting 4 DIMMs also guarantees that you'll be able to benefit from the latency reduction of rank interleaving. I seriously hope that the rank configuration of CAMM2s will be listed on their specifications so we won't have to guess when we buy, but considering that it normally wasn't listed for DIMMs, I'm not hopeful that it will be.
If CAMM2s end up being cheaper than pairs of DIMMs with similar performance though, I'll get on board.
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I'm not sure if I'm a contrarian, but I don't think I want CAMM2.
DIMMs give you a cheaper upgrade option. If you have a motherboard with 4 slots, you can buy 2 modules, and then add 2 more modules when you need an upgrade. With CAMM2, you need to remove your old RAM in order to increase your capacity. In theory you can resell your old CAMM2, but in practice, how many people will actually do that I suspect CAMM2s will generate more ewaste as a result.
Getting 4 DIMMs also guarantees that you'll be able to benefit from the latency reduction of rank interleaving. I seriously hope that the rank configuration of CAMM2s will be listed on their specifications so we won't have to guess when we buy, but considering that it normally wasn't listed for DIMMs, I'm not hopeful that it will be.
If CAMM2s end up being cheaper than pairs of DIMMs with similar performance though, I'll get on board.
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MaheerKibria
So I like the idea of CAMM2 on a desktop. For me, the appealing parts are compatibility and aesthetics. Capacity or density wasn't an issue and performance is one of those things where chasing a few percentage points here or there doesn't matter for most people. I think the nice thing about CAMM2 for new builders though is that putting in DIMM can be nerve-racking since you need to apply a decent amount of force. CAMM2 doesn't have that problem. The replaceability of the compression connector means you can change out the RAM as much as you want. Also if this becomes the standard and replaces DIMM I imagine costs would go down. Also separating the aesthetics from the functionality means you can have replaceable RGB since it wouldn't be on the RAM PCB. You don't have to worry about mismatched sticks. I want this to become the new standard, rather than UDIMM.
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So I like the idea of CAMM2 on a desktop. For me, the appealing parts are compatibility and aesthetics. Capacity or density wasn't an issue and performance is one of those things where chasing a few percentage points here or there doesn't matter for most people. I think the nice thing about CAMM2 for new builders though is that putting in DIMM can be nerve-racking since you need to apply a decent amount of force. CAMM2 doesn't have that problem. The replaceability of the compression connector means you can change out the RAM as much as you want. Also if this becomes the standard and replaces DIMM I imagine costs would go down. Also separating the aesthetics from the functionality means you can have replaceable RGB since it wouldn't be on the RAM PCB. You don't have to worry about mismatched sticks. I want this to become the new standard, rather than UDIMM.
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novantha1
I'm a bit worried about CAMM2 capacity, TBH. On the modern platforms I believe you can hit 196GB of capacity at a moderate pricing premium, so it'd be a bit of a shame if a standard like this took over for the next gen of PCs and we didn't see the same increase in capacity that we saw this gen, for instance.
As an example, I don't know the specific numbers, but if CAMM2 maxed out at 96 or 128GB capacity, we might end up not getting desktop configurations with DDR6 or extended capacity DDR5 configurations that hit, for instance, 256GB capacities on desktop with the next generation of memory capacity... Or at least, not as quickly as we went from I think 128GB DDR4 at the highest end to 196GB DDR5, for instance.
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I'm a bit worried about CAMM2 capacity, TBH. On the modern platforms I believe you can hit 196GB of capacity at a moderate pricing premium, so it'd be a bit of a shame if a standard like this took over for the next gen of PCs and we didn't see the same increase in capacity that we saw this gen, for instance.
As an example, I don't know the specific numbers, but if CAMM2 maxed out at 96 or 128GB capacity, we might end up not getting desktop configurations with DDR6 or extended capacity DDR5 configurations that hit, for instance, 256GB capacities on desktop with the next generation of memory capacity... Or at least, not as quickly as we went from I think 128GB DDR4 at the highest end to 196GB DDR5, for instance.
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chaosfenix
I would love to see a new motherboard standard where the CPU comes on an addin card just like a GPU and then you could put this thing on the back of the CPU socket. If we can cool a 4090 we should be able to cool a CPU at this point. For the slot itself you would need to have either a longer slot or a dual slot connector in order to support like 32 PCIE lanes but honestly it would be nice given how everything connect to PCIE now.
Edit. I would also like to see us drop ATX PSUs and move entirely to SFX. You can get up to 1300W currently from them and I imagine if we went ATX12VO at the same time we could maybe even go higher due to not needing to include components for 3.3 and 5v in the PSU.
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I would love to see a new motherboard standard where the CPU comes on an addin card just like a GPU and then you could put this thing on the back of the CPU socket. If we can cool a 4090 we should be able to cool a CPU at this point. For the slot itself you would need to have either a longer slot or a dual slot connector in order to support like 32 PCIE lanes but honestly it would be nice given how everything connect to PCIE now.
Edit. I would also like to see us drop ATX PSUs and move entirely to SFX. You can get up to 1300W currently from them and I imagine if we went ATX12VO at the same time we could maybe even go higher due to not needing to include components for 3.3 and 5v in the PSU.
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gforce95vn
The vendor's comment on on-package memory leads to better performance is not wrong. CPUs, as fast we have it now, still sits idle waiting for data to be fetched from main memory a concerninly large amount of time. That's why the 3D V-cache and 128mb L4 eDRAM had so much noticeable performance in tasks where game data can be stored on cache.
Lantecy is the enemy of all CPUs, and latency is literally time wasted waiting for stuff to happen. I do not mind a 16gb embedded Ryzen 9800X3D. AMD could just have two SKUs, 16gb and 32gb. Although 16gb might be on it's last legs for modern unfinished-at-launch games.
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The vendor's comment on on-package memory leads to better performance is not wrong. CPUs, as fast we have it now, still sits idle waiting for data to be fetched from main memory a concerninly large amount of time. That's why the 3D V-cache and 128mb L4 eDRAM had so much noticeable performance in tasks where game data can be stored on cache.
Lantecy is the enemy of all CPUs, and latency is literally time wasted waiting for stuff to happen. I do not mind a 16gb embedded Ryzen 9800X3D. AMD could just have two SKUs, 16gb and 32gb. Although 16gb might be on it's last legs for modern unfinished-at-launch games.
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harryniedecken5321
In a build using:
- M.2 storage
- this memory
- APU
- Single side connections
- Mother board that can directly accept AGM or LiFe nominal 12 volt battery power instead of needing a power supply.
Some type of flat cooling solution ( s)
That could make for fairly thin case computer solutions. Very useful for mobile and commercial applications.
Maybe cool using an immersion approach.
Possibly some kind of video card that is parallel to the MB or the mobile versions of video cards to keep a very low profile.
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In a build using:
- M.2 storage
- this memory
- APU
- Single side connections
- Mother board that can directly accept AGM or LiFe nominal 12 volt battery power instead of needing a power supply.
Some type of flat cooling solution ( s)
That could make for fairly thin case computer solutions. Very useful for mobile and commercial applications.
Maybe cool using an immersion approach.
Possibly some kind of video card that is parallel to the MB or the mobile versions of video cards to keep a very low profile.
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mrtuk4282
For Laptops I can see a possibility that this type of memory module might have a use, but personally having 4 SODIMM's on my gaming laptop was ok. 2 were populated (2X16Gb) and I populated 2 more making it 64Gb in total. But with this new memory it seems you only have one, so if you purchased PC/Laptop with 32Gb to upgrade would mean removing the 32Gb module and replacing it with a 64Gb hence costing more to upgrade also still requiring the need to keep the old module just in case the new module failed in the future !
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For Laptops I can see a possibility that this type of memory module might have a use, but personally having 4 SODIMM's on my gaming laptop was ok. 2 were populated (2X16Gb) and I populated 2 more making it 64Gb in total. But with this new memory it seems you only have one, so if you purchased PC/Laptop with 32Gb to upgrade would mean removing the 32Gb module and replacing it with a 64Gb hence costing more to upgrade also still requiring the need to keep the old module just in case the new module failed in the future !
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mariushmedias
I have to be cynic and go with we may be getting a higher discount on ram sockets if we buy in bigger volume and use them on desktop boards as well - for laptops it's a good marketing point to have upgradable ram instead of soldered ram, on desktops you can choose between more value ram for office computers or higher end ram
It's also less environment friendly .... how many laptops are gonna be sold with a 8 or 16 GB camm2 module that's gonna be trashed as it has no resale value, when user buys a 32-64 module
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I have to be cynic and go with we may be getting a higher discount on ram sockets if we buy in bigger volume and use them on desktop boards as well - for laptops it's a good marketing point to have upgradable ram instead of soldered ram, on desktops you can choose between more value ram for office computers or higher end ram
It's also less environment friendly .... how many laptops are gonna be sold with a 8 or 16 GB camm2 module that's gonna be trashed as it has no resale value, when user buys a 32-64 module
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HypoCT
The thing that I'm most worried about this thing is that if it fails, the whole thing is done. Imagine getting 128GB of this thing, and it's just... gone. All that money. Meanwhile if you get 4x32GB, if one of them dies, it still hurts but you only lose a quarter of the money you spent. If the module is split, that would be nice, but I would not even consider that thing for budget-constraint workstation setup, at least in the current implementation of it right now unless for a gaming setup with 16GB or 32GB of it.
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The thing that I'm most worried about this thing is that if it fails, the whole thing is done. Imagine getting 128GB of this thing, and it's just... gone. All that money. Meanwhile if you get 4x32GB, if one of them dies, it still hurts but you only lose a quarter of the money you spent. If the module is split, that would be nice, but I would not even consider that thing for budget-constraint workstation setup, at least in the current implementation of it right now unless for a gaming setup with 16GB or 32GB of it.
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jouniosmala9921
If you can fit as much RAM in that module as in 4 DIMM:s then it's much faster than 4 DIMM:s, because lower frequencies for 4 DIMM:s. However, the RAM speed only affects fraction of total execution time. If for some specific application it's limiting factor for 20% of time, and you make it 50% faster speed up would be 10% or if you make 10% speed up is 2%. The fraction of total execution time increases when CPU:s become faster, but decreases when CPU increases last-level cache size.
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If you can fit as much RAM in that module as in 4 DIMM:s then it's much faster than 4 DIMM:s, because lower frequencies for 4 DIMM:s. However, the RAM speed only affects fraction of total execution time. If for some specific application it's limiting factor for 20% of time, and you make it 50% faster speed up would be 10% or if you make 10% speed up is 2%. The fraction of total execution time increases when CPU:s become faster, but decreases when CPU increases last-level cache size.
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c0d3warrior
While I do see the benefits of of this interface, I always loved to be able to upgrade my ram by having 4 DIMM slots. Buy a reasonable amount of RAM in a 2-Kit at first, and buy the same Kit at a later date again to double the capacity at a later point to improve performance while stretching the overall costs over a bigger timeframe.
I guess I'll stick with DIMM until boards with two CAMM slots exist and offer the same capabilities and at a cost equal or lower than a DIMM solution.
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While I do see the benefits of of this interface, I always loved to be able to upgrade my ram by having 4 DIMM slots. Buy a reasonable amount of RAM in a 2-Kit at first, and buy the same Kit at a later date again to double the capacity at a later point to improve performance while stretching the overall costs over a bigger timeframe.
I guess I'll stick with DIMM until boards with two CAMM slots exist and offer the same capabilities and at a cost equal or lower than a DIMM solution.
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thestrykernet
Nobody has talked about the 4 memory chips on the back with regards to cooling. CAMM2 modules are also limited to 128GB maximum capacity, but the ones on display here are 64GB maximum. Currently there are no real technical advantages to CAMM2, but the future promises with regards to speed/latency stability could be good. Asus might not be seeing improvements on the speed/latency side since they have the Apex boards which are widely regarded as the best memory boards on the market.
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Nobody has talked about the 4 memory chips on the back with regards to cooling. CAMM2 modules are also limited to 128GB maximum capacity, but the ones on display here are 64GB maximum. Currently there are no real technical advantages to CAMM2, but the future promises with regards to speed/latency stability could be good. Asus might not be seeing improvements on the speed/latency side since they have the Apex boards which are widely regarded as the best memory boards on the market.
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phillycheesetake
There is another benefit; air coolers can now be 20-30mm shorter for the same fin area. In fact, if the top VRM heatsink wasn't made unnecessarily tall, the four top-right motherboard screw points could be used to also support very wide tower coolers, eliminating a source of motherboard flex and increasing the capability of air cooling.
Eliminating a non-ZIF socket is another small benefit.
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There is another benefit; air coolers can now be 20-30mm shorter for the same fin area. In fact, if the top VRM heatsink wasn't made unnecessarily tall, the four top-right motherboard screw points could be used to also support very wide tower coolers, eliminating a source of motherboard flex and increasing the capability of air cooling.
Eliminating a non-ZIF socket is another small benefit.
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TechTechPotato
Hey Adam, I spoke with Micron, who had slides showing CAMM2 at DDR5-9600. They said that the cost (even with the added cost of the motherboard connector) for CAMM2 would be cheaper than a traditional four DIMM solution (2ch, 2DPC). That probably means it's more expensive than a 2ch/1DPC common layout, but they also said it's economies of scale - if it becomes popular, cost will come down :)
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Hey Adam, I spoke with Micron, who had slides showing CAMM2 at DDR5-9600. They said that the cost (even with the added cost of the motherboard connector) for CAMM2 would be cheaper than a traditional four DIMM solution (2ch, 2DPC). That probably means it's more expensive than a 2ch/1DPC common layout, but they also said it's economies of scale - if it becomes popular, cost will come down :)
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bleack8701
I'd prefer this over traditional DIMM slots, as it would make it easier to mess around with the CPU and CPU cooler and it would help with airflow.
Embedded is a hard no. Not just because I'm on PC, but because I've suffered from RAM problems on my laptop and had to deal with those limitations in the past.
My only issue with CAMM2 would be how it slots in. It's unclear to me right now
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I'd prefer this over traditional DIMM slots, as it would make it easier to mess around with the CPU and CPU cooler and it would help with airflow.
Embedded is a hard no. Not just because I'm on PC, but because I've suffered from RAM problems on my laptop and had to deal with those limitations in the past.
My only issue with CAMM2 would be how it slots in. It's unclear to me right now
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TomasRamoska
I think it's too late for CAMM2 laptops will move to arm system on the chip.
Desktops will be very slow to adapt it also.
I think in the future we will see powerful arm chip's with 32GB or 64GB memory so everything will be sold as bundle with small itx motherboards. Hopefully RTX5090 series as rumored will be two slot cards.
We will have very powerful and small workstations.
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I think it's too late for CAMM2 laptops will move to arm system on the chip.
Desktops will be very slow to adapt it also.
I think in the future we will see powerful arm chip's with 32GB or 64GB memory so everything will be sold as bundle with small itx motherboards. Hopefully RTX5090 series as rumored will be two slot cards.
We will have very powerful and small workstations.
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TheXev
There would be another benefit that i haven't seen anyone talk about: Cost. If CAMM2 is used in BOTH desktop and laptop, that means the choices become basically the same, and it also means less SKUs for memory makers to produce. I do not know if this is a thing, but CAMM2 should REQUIRE the ability to enable overclocking on the RAM, especially on laptops were this isn't always the case.
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There would be another benefit that i haven't seen anyone talk about: Cost. If CAMM2 is used in BOTH desktop and laptop, that means the choices become basically the same, and it also means less SKUs for memory makers to produce. I do not know if this is a thing, but CAMM2 should REQUIRE the ability to enable overclocking on the RAM, especially on laptops were this isn't always the case.
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samov497
Seeing CAMM2 on mini ITX would be awesome. I wonder if it would even open up opportunity for backside memory placement, but im not crossing my fingers.
Agreed on CAMM2 being a good middle ground vs soldering on as well. Not only is upgradeability a concern, but repairs are as well. A lot easier to swap out a socketed in memory module when one fails vs the whole motherboard.
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Seeing CAMM2 on mini ITX would be awesome. I wonder if it would even open up opportunity for backside memory placement, but im not crossing my fingers.
Agreed on CAMM2 being a good middle ground vs soldering on as well. Not only is upgradeability a concern, but repairs are as well. A lot easier to swap out a socketed in memory module when one fails vs the whole motherboard.
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