Heisenberg and Bohr's 1941 Copenhagen Meeting: What Happened?
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Date: 2022-12-27
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Comments and reviews: 20
Richard
Heisenberg's odd notion (that the Nazis would be 'purified' after the war) recalls the attitude of German high society to the Nazis before 1933; that they were useful tools and fools who could be dispensed with after crushing socialists, communists, and all others disturbing their cherished concept of German culture.
To my shame I doubt that I would have been any better or braver than either Heisenberg or any other of his German colleagues. In this connection I'd remark on your quote from Rosbaud (around 9: 40) dealing with Heisenberg's reprehensible attitude; for I've encountered it before. Ultimately it comes from Rosbaud's deposition before Goudsmit in August 1945, which he expanded on after Goudsmit wrote Rosbaud a decade later, condemning Heisenberg for having neither learned nor forgotten anything.
But therein lies a clue as to why I find it hard to condemn Heisenberg or his colleagues, for Rosbaud had much more to say in response. Rose's book on Heisenberg and the Nazi bomb for example, goes into some detail on Rosbaud's reaction to what Rose calls 'cant' of the Heisenberg sort.
To be sure, the man himself was insufferably arrogant, self-serving, and blind to the sufferings of real victims. But even the innocent relief of a group of German scientists mid-war that they would not have to work on a Nazi Bomb (following Speer's decision to abandon it, was not safe from Rosbaud's ire. The whole group was stunned by Rosbaud's outburst, and they ran off for fear that a Gestapo informant was in their midst.
One gathers that Rosbaud was very drunk when he told them off in such spectacular fashion, but I'm nonetheless surprised than none of these scientists denounced him to the Gestapo. As indeed was Rosbaud. And it is especially hard to see how 'anglo-saxon' scientists of the period would have done any better - as Rosbaud famously remarked to Goudsmit (you know it is difficult to find an English scientist who understands how it is possible to fight his own country)
Likewise, if only a paragon like von Laue can openly oppose the Nazis in the face of threats like the Gestapo, I can't believe a typical human would have comparable courage in the same situation, myself included.
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Heisenberg's odd notion (that the Nazis would be 'purified' after the war) recalls the attitude of German high society to the Nazis before 1933; that they were useful tools and fools who could be dispensed with after crushing socialists, communists, and all others disturbing their cherished concept of German culture.
To my shame I doubt that I would have been any better or braver than either Heisenberg or any other of his German colleagues. In this connection I'd remark on your quote from Rosbaud (around 9: 40) dealing with Heisenberg's reprehensible attitude; for I've encountered it before. Ultimately it comes from Rosbaud's deposition before Goudsmit in August 1945, which he expanded on after Goudsmit wrote Rosbaud a decade later, condemning Heisenberg for having neither learned nor forgotten anything.
But therein lies a clue as to why I find it hard to condemn Heisenberg or his colleagues, for Rosbaud had much more to say in response. Rose's book on Heisenberg and the Nazi bomb for example, goes into some detail on Rosbaud's reaction to what Rose calls 'cant' of the Heisenberg sort.
To be sure, the man himself was insufferably arrogant, self-serving, and blind to the sufferings of real victims. But even the innocent relief of a group of German scientists mid-war that they would not have to work on a Nazi Bomb (following Speer's decision to abandon it, was not safe from Rosbaud's ire. The whole group was stunned by Rosbaud's outburst, and they ran off for fear that a Gestapo informant was in their midst.
One gathers that Rosbaud was very drunk when he told them off in such spectacular fashion, but I'm nonetheless surprised than none of these scientists denounced him to the Gestapo. As indeed was Rosbaud. And it is especially hard to see how 'anglo-saxon' scientists of the period would have done any better - as Rosbaud famously remarked to Goudsmit (you know it is difficult to find an English scientist who understands how it is possible to fight his own country)
Likewise, if only a paragon like von Laue can openly oppose the Nazis in the face of threats like the Gestapo, I can't believe a typical human would have comparable courage in the same situation, myself included.
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Rick
Hello Kathy! Enjoy Your Enlightenment on the disinformation of the past as it was done then (as it is now thats a surprise is it not? ) to the last one standing goes the rights to the history books, it is a wonder any of that information is still available to resolve the actual truth this far forward in time! Thanks for giving History a proper sorting out, Also Thank You for the Movie recommendation of Ninotchka ( not one I would have said lets watch that I have to say but Happy I have I enjoyed it! ) it like Casablanca being from the same era is one of those movies were You get to like very much the Characters and leaves one thinking about it long after it is over, It however did end quite abruptly and left all the possibilities open as to how the future for all concerned was to play whereas Casablance did not leave so many loose ends in the End flappin in the breeze it needs a part 2! Funny How Greta Garbo only as per My reading did one other movie after this and that was it inspite of living a Good long Life ) Yes is was Great to see them Meet Again: ) Cheers! from Rick Armstrong in Aurora Ontario Canada
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Hello Kathy! Enjoy Your Enlightenment on the disinformation of the past as it was done then (as it is now thats a surprise is it not? ) to the last one standing goes the rights to the history books, it is a wonder any of that information is still available to resolve the actual truth this far forward in time! Thanks for giving History a proper sorting out, Also Thank You for the Movie recommendation of Ninotchka ( not one I would have said lets watch that I have to say but Happy I have I enjoyed it! ) it like Casablanca being from the same era is one of those movies were You get to like very much the Characters and leaves one thinking about it long after it is over, It however did end quite abruptly and left all the possibilities open as to how the future for all concerned was to play whereas Casablance did not leave so many loose ends in the End flappin in the breeze it needs a part 2! Funny How Greta Garbo only as per My reading did one other movie after this and that was it inspite of living a Good long Life ) Yes is was Great to see them Meet Again: ) Cheers! from Rick Armstrong in Aurora Ontario Canada
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Nuntius
I saw Michael Frayn's play Copenhagen twice and have always been fascinated by this issue. I find your explanation extremely clear and compelling. We always want to assume the best of great scientists and artists, but there is of course no logical reason why someone like Heisenberg could not be both a first rank scienitist and hold repellent and uncivilised political opinions. Personally, I always find this more disappointing with regard to artists. After all, had Heisenberg died in childhood we'd still have all the discoveries he made, whereas had say Wagner died in childhood we'd have no Ring cycle (though we wouldn't know it of course. That said, with a few exceptions, most of the great scientists of the last century do seem (thankfully) to have held humanist and progressive opinions. P. S. One small point, at 19. 03 I assume the reference to 1938 is wrong and you actually mean 1942, as Fermi first demonstrated the chain reaction in December of that year, I think )
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I saw Michael Frayn's play Copenhagen twice and have always been fascinated by this issue. I find your explanation extremely clear and compelling. We always want to assume the best of great scientists and artists, but there is of course no logical reason why someone like Heisenberg could not be both a first rank scienitist and hold repellent and uncivilised political opinions. Personally, I always find this more disappointing with regard to artists. After all, had Heisenberg died in childhood we'd still have all the discoveries he made, whereas had say Wagner died in childhood we'd have no Ring cycle (though we wouldn't know it of course. That said, with a few exceptions, most of the great scientists of the last century do seem (thankfully) to have held humanist and progressive opinions. P. S. One small point, at 19. 03 I assume the reference to 1938 is wrong and you actually mean 1942, as Fermi first demonstrated the chain reaction in December of that year, I think )
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Amr
Elegant analysis and research as usual. I just have one question, why would a prominent Jewish American scientist like Edward Teller, until his death in 2003, defend his friend Heisenberg fervently? Heisnberg, by your account, was racist, anti-semitic, supremacist and supporter of ethnic cleansing. Teller had the latest information as you did including the British intelligence farm records. However, Teller, a giant in physics himself, reached different conclusions. Many others who actually knew Heisnberg and lived the history agreed with Teller. Undoubtedly, Heisnberg made bad decisions and probably had some moral cowardice, most of us would under a brutal regime, but his portrayal as such an evil person may be the other extreme.
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Elegant analysis and research as usual. I just have one question, why would a prominent Jewish American scientist like Edward Teller, until his death in 2003, defend his friend Heisenberg fervently? Heisnberg, by your account, was racist, anti-semitic, supremacist and supporter of ethnic cleansing. Teller had the latest information as you did including the British intelligence farm records. However, Teller, a giant in physics himself, reached different conclusions. Many others who actually knew Heisnberg and lived the history agreed with Teller. Undoubtedly, Heisnberg made bad decisions and probably had some moral cowardice, most of us would under a brutal regime, but his portrayal as such an evil person may be the other extreme.
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MyFirstSeven
Kathy, this is an AMAZING video. I feel like it is taboo to openly discuss the influence these specific relationships and individuals had on our daily lives. Its like the poured the water that we swim in.
Given your research on this subject, why do you REALLY think that Germany is so staunchly anti-nuclear? It just doesnt add up to me, the German identity and its relationship with coal, their role in WW2, and their birthing of nuclear; and ultimately THAT being stolen by the Allies and Soviets in ways that laid the foundations for the Cold War and the weird ass and irrational energy policies we are seeing pursued today.
My social intelligence is failing hard. Help me make sense of this!
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Kathy, this is an AMAZING video. I feel like it is taboo to openly discuss the influence these specific relationships and individuals had on our daily lives. Its like the poured the water that we swim in.
Given your research on this subject, why do you REALLY think that Germany is so staunchly anti-nuclear? It just doesnt add up to me, the German identity and its relationship with coal, their role in WW2, and their birthing of nuclear; and ultimately THAT being stolen by the Allies and Soviets in ways that laid the foundations for the Cold War and the weird ass and irrational energy policies we are seeing pursued today.
My social intelligence is failing hard. Help me make sense of this!
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Martin
During Operation Epsilon the British had bugged the rooms where the ten German scientists were being held and this was where they initiated response by telling them of the destruction of Hiroshima by 'atomic bomb' - no other information was offered and they left them alone and went to listen. Weisacker said to Heisenberg, 'Do you think they are listening? ' and Heisenberg replied, 'No the British are not clever enough for that'. Or something like it.
There is a full transcript somewhere, and a pllay. I seem to remember they didn't give much away but the feeling was they had not advanced much beyond the theoretical.
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During Operation Epsilon the British had bugged the rooms where the ten German scientists were being held and this was where they initiated response by telling them of the destruction of Hiroshima by 'atomic bomb' - no other information was offered and they left them alone and went to listen. Weisacker said to Heisenberg, 'Do you think they are listening? ' and Heisenberg replied, 'No the British are not clever enough for that'. Or something like it.
There is a full transcript somewhere, and a pllay. I seem to remember they didn't give much away but the feeling was they had not advanced much beyond the theoretical.
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nannawalling
In my search for truth and origins of human purpose I came to some documentaries narrated by professor Jim Al Kahalli and his talks about atoms. In my discussions of this with my son he encouraged me to learn about Heidenburg and other works of scientists mentioned in these documentaries. It led me here where I absolutely commend you for sharing your incredible knowledge and encouragement of knowing the history of these people. I can not get enough of this to open the past truths can so clearly lay a path to a healthy future for humanity if we will only really learn truth. What a gem! Thank you!
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In my search for truth and origins of human purpose I came to some documentaries narrated by professor Jim Al Kahalli and his talks about atoms. In my discussions of this with my son he encouraged me to learn about Heidenburg and other works of scientists mentioned in these documentaries. It led me here where I absolutely commend you for sharing your incredible knowledge and encouragement of knowing the history of these people. I can not get enough of this to open the past truths can so clearly lay a path to a healthy future for humanity if we will only really learn truth. What a gem! Thank you!
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Dov
There is a mystical Jewish Gematriah that the numerical value of the G-d hating nation Amaleq ) 240 is equal to the numerical value for (Saffeq)= Uncertainty, which is also 240. because postulating that G-d is not in control of His Universe is the first giant leap to denying His existence altogether. So it makes sense that the man who first showed that G-d was not the determining factor in controlling the outcome of a certain set of initial conditions would be the one who hated Jews most of all.
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There is a mystical Jewish Gematriah that the numerical value of the G-d hating nation Amaleq ) 240 is equal to the numerical value for (Saffeq)= Uncertainty, which is also 240. because postulating that G-d is not in control of His Universe is the first giant leap to denying His existence altogether. So it makes sense that the man who first showed that G-d was not the determining factor in controlling the outcome of a certain set of initial conditions would be the one who hated Jews most of all.
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Ray
That German reactor, made of uranium cubes hanging from short strings, without neutron reflectors or moderators, can only be either the result of incompetence, or fakery.
Heisenberg never used the diffusion equation to calculate a critical mass, nor he achieved controlled criticality (for power generation) under any circumstance. He only proved that fission was achievable.
After 1945, he stated that he knew about the chain reaction.
I guess we will never know for sure.
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That German reactor, made of uranium cubes hanging from short strings, without neutron reflectors or moderators, can only be either the result of incompetence, or fakery.
Heisenberg never used the diffusion equation to calculate a critical mass, nor he achieved controlled criticality (for power generation) under any circumstance. He only proved that fission was achievable.
After 1945, he stated that he knew about the chain reaction.
I guess we will never know for sure.
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David
Wow. It must have taken such deep research to put all this information together so well. Physics is one thing, but the politics of the time was an important part of the story and reflects the degree of conscience of the physicists who developed quantum mechanics before, during, and after World War 2. This story should not be forgotten whenever the Holocaust and the Nazi regime in general is considered in detail.
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Wow. It must have taken such deep research to put all this information together so well. Physics is one thing, but the politics of the time was an important part of the story and reflects the degree of conscience of the physicists who developed quantum mechanics before, during, and after World War 2. This story should not be forgotten whenever the Holocaust and the Nazi regime in general is considered in detail.
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Anon
Very interesting and good presentation, but I had trouble keeping all the people straight. I don't know how you would do it, maybe some kind of chart or cartoon with people traveling from country to country, but if you could figure out a way to show the relationship of everyone, that would help. But, no matter, very interesting presentation. It is sobering how geniuses can get some things very wrong.
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Very interesting and good presentation, but I had trouble keeping all the people straight. I don't know how you would do it, maybe some kind of chart or cartoon with people traveling from country to country, but if you could figure out a way to show the relationship of everyone, that would help. But, no matter, very interesting presentation. It is sobering how geniuses can get some things very wrong.
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Todor
I believe Heisenberg did what was necessary to defend his country. If the Manhattan project was 3-4 months quicker developing their bomb, we would have gotten nuked here in Europe - and the scientist working on that project knew this very well - and still continued with their work. There are no innocent or guilty scientists - only those working for the winning side or the losing side.
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I believe Heisenberg did what was necessary to defend his country. If the Manhattan project was 3-4 months quicker developing their bomb, we would have gotten nuked here in Europe - and the scientist working on that project knew this very well - and still continued with their work. There are no innocent or guilty scientists - only those working for the winning side or the losing side.
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finlay
Kathy, I have seen photos of strings of metal cubes (Unranium) suspended over what I presume was a heavy water container. There was also the famed Telemark raid to hinder German heavy water production. So they were up to something, a blind alley thankfully, but you could always tell us about how far they got along with that. Thank you for your always fascinating presentations.
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Kathy, I have seen photos of strings of metal cubes (Unranium) suspended over what I presume was a heavy water container. There was also the famed Telemark raid to hinder German heavy water production. So they were up to something, a blind alley thankfully, but you could always tell us about how far they got along with that. Thank you for your always fascinating presentations.
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Alberto
Im far from being a historian or having access to this kind of data. Still, it sounds to me that adding one factor could change things back in favor of Heisenberg if he thought of the possibility that all his conversations being held with spies or being reported to them. I know I would do it myself in such a situation. I know it's a long shot, but valid as any.
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Im far from being a historian or having access to this kind of data. Still, it sounds to me that adding one factor could change things back in favor of Heisenberg if he thought of the possibility that all his conversations being held with spies or being reported to them. I know I would do it myself in such a situation. I know it's a long shot, but valid as any.
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Vic
Kathy 19 min into the presentation you say On October 4th, 1938, Bohr agreed to go to England where he was shocked to find out that 11 months earlier Enrico Fermi had successfully created a nuclear chain reaction but that is not correct. Fermi's 1st reactor was created in Dec 1942. I think you meant to say October 4, 1943.
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Kathy 19 min into the presentation you say On October 4th, 1938, Bohr agreed to go to England where he was shocked to find out that 11 months earlier Enrico Fermi had successfully created a nuclear chain reaction but that is not correct. Fermi's 1st reactor was created in Dec 1942. I think you meant to say October 4, 1943.
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no
The kinder version is Heisenburg was seduced by the nazis. I always thought he was a good scientist
and a rat bastard. Sort of like Benedict Arnold, a good general and a rat bastard. Postwar everyone
claimed to be a member of the resistance. Everyday more and more people deny voting for slow joe.
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The kinder version is Heisenburg was seduced by the nazis. I always thought he was a good scientist
and a rat bastard. Sort of like Benedict Arnold, a good general and a rat bastard. Postwar everyone
claimed to be a member of the resistance. Everyday more and more people deny voting for slow joe.
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Broomfield
Thank you for this balanced and well done presentation on a well trod subject. I have studied history all my life and have specialized in intelligence history of the WW II Era. I count several friends who are Physicsts. There has been a tendency of scientists to think themselves above politics.
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Thank you for this balanced and well done presentation on a well trod subject. I have studied history all my life and have specialized in intelligence history of the WW II Era. I count several friends who are Physicsts. There has been a tendency of scientists to think themselves above politics.
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bcho
Heisenberg is, without doubt, one of the greatest scientists in modern era. But let's face it; he was a nazi scientist. This confirms my belief that Nobel or not, you can still have screwed up morals and ethics - See Shockley, Watson for their abhorrent views on race and eugenics.
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Heisenberg is, without doubt, one of the greatest scientists in modern era. But let's face it; he was a nazi scientist. This confirms my belief that Nobel or not, you can still have screwed up morals and ethics - See Shockley, Watson for their abhorrent views on race and eugenics.
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dpollak59
You didn't mention the important point that the British bugging showed that Heisenberg had miscalculated the critical mass required to have a nuclear chain reaction by an order of magnitude, so that was why he didn't believe the A-bomb was dropped on Japan by an airplane.
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You didn't mention the important point that the British bugging showed that Heisenberg had miscalculated the critical mass required to have a nuclear chain reaction by an order of magnitude, so that was why he didn't believe the A-bomb was dropped on Japan by an airplane.
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Glen
Thank you, Kathy.
I was aware of the atrocities of the Nazi's by the time I was in second grade.
My Jewish friends told me and showed me the disgusting photographs. US soldiers told me of the Nazi's horrors.
Truly sick!
Thank you for the truth.
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Thank you, Kathy.
I was aware of the atrocities of the Nazi's by the time I was in second grade.
My Jewish friends told me and showed me the disgusting photographs. US soldiers told me of the Nazi's horrors.
Truly sick!
Thank you for the truth.
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