Fake Frames Tested - DLSS 4.0, MFG 4X, & NVIDIA's Misleading Review Guide
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Date: 2025-02-02
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Comments and reviews: 20
tictechtone
Yall wanna look into the new driver (572.16) update bricking gaming on ppls rigs Long story short it appears power draw spikes on my rig like booting a game or coming off a pc restart, causing full blue screen crashing or games literally wont boot open att all currently
572.16 feedback thread on nvidias website has 400ppl having similar issues most have a 40series cards but also some older ones and even 50s
My System zotac amp 4090, 13900k, z690 hero 64gb ddr5 6400 cl 36 i believe, 1000watt psu pcie gen4 riser being used, no cpu oc or gpu oc, gpu silent mode via bios switch
I put 30hours in rdr2 just fine past week, updated gpu driver via nvapp 1-30 i no 572.16, tried to use the dlaa transformer model override via the directions from nvidias site, once enabled rdr2 would boot save then crash 20seconds later, tried via Nvidias direction to revert changes(use 3d settings) still no fix
Cashing for rdr2 was getting worse and eventually game wouldnt boot at all.
Went on nvidias site downloaded the same driver thinking maybe old fashioned manually installed drivers would take better (also uninstalled RDR2)
Used DDU DRIVER UNINSTALLER via win11 safe mode and Internet unplugged/wifi off also allowed ddu through fire wall manually, it uninstalled both gpu driver and nvapp fine restarted then proceeded to install driver and app again fine, problems persistent, even with redownload rdr2
Decided rolling back driver would fix issue, do using nvapp custom/clean installed December 5ths driver, no fix. i tried 2 other games this time, hogwats would not boot just crash right after clicking play via steam, tryed my daughters sim4 would boot but the second i swapped into build mode crash or even blue screen crash
Maybe nv app for uninstall/install was shot, used ddu again same method to roll driver back to the November one, still no fix.
At this point my pc is only stable sitting in os or light web browsing, speculation somthing is either hitting hard on cpu powerdraw or gpu draw causing crashing, read some ppl undervolting seem to help, ima tinker tonight, but a gpu driver i uninstalled and completely removed still causing issue on my rigs not great hope this helps somone avoid my issue. it literally only started happening once i tryed my first dlss 4 override into a game
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Yall wanna look into the new driver (572.16) update bricking gaming on ppls rigs Long story short it appears power draw spikes on my rig like booting a game or coming off a pc restart, causing full blue screen crashing or games literally wont boot open att all currently
572.16 feedback thread on nvidias website has 400ppl having similar issues most have a 40series cards but also some older ones and even 50s
My System zotac amp 4090, 13900k, z690 hero 64gb ddr5 6400 cl 36 i believe, 1000watt psu pcie gen4 riser being used, no cpu oc or gpu oc, gpu silent mode via bios switch
I put 30hours in rdr2 just fine past week, updated gpu driver via nvapp 1-30 i no 572.16, tried to use the dlaa transformer model override via the directions from nvidias site, once enabled rdr2 would boot save then crash 20seconds later, tried via Nvidias direction to revert changes(use 3d settings) still no fix
Cashing for rdr2 was getting worse and eventually game wouldnt boot at all.
Went on nvidias site downloaded the same driver thinking maybe old fashioned manually installed drivers would take better (also uninstalled RDR2)
Used DDU DRIVER UNINSTALLER via win11 safe mode and Internet unplugged/wifi off also allowed ddu through fire wall manually, it uninstalled both gpu driver and nvapp fine restarted then proceeded to install driver and app again fine, problems persistent, even with redownload rdr2
Decided rolling back driver would fix issue, do using nvapp custom/clean installed December 5ths driver, no fix. i tried 2 other games this time, hogwats would not boot just crash right after clicking play via steam, tryed my daughters sim4 would boot but the second i swapped into build mode crash or even blue screen crash
Maybe nv app for uninstall/install was shot, used ddu again same method to roll driver back to the November one, still no fix.
At this point my pc is only stable sitting in os or light web browsing, speculation somthing is either hitting hard on cpu powerdraw or gpu draw causing crashing, read some ppl undervolting seem to help, ima tinker tonight, but a gpu driver i uninstalled and completely removed still causing issue on my rigs not great hope this helps somone avoid my issue. it literally only started happening once i tryed my first dlss 4 override into a game
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Meditations2024
To put things into context: An 80 Hz frame time is 12.5 ms and 480 Hz frame time is 2.1 ms. With 20-40 milliseconds total latency being considered optimal for competitive game-play.
I honestly haven't seen total latency numbers that are anywhere near unplayable using MFG. Particularly in single player games.
So, while I highly doubt even the most sensitive gamers would feel the difference while using MFG, I know for a fact that they'd overwhelmingly be able to see the difference between say 80 Hz and 320 Hz.
The appropriate test would be a double blind study.
Image quality of generated frame would almost certainly scale with the base rasterized frame rate. I.E. generated frames would likely look better at 80 Hz than they would at 60 Hz or 30 Hz.
Digital Foundry was succinct when they said all frames are fake frames. I love Digital Foundry; they get it.
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To put things into context: An 80 Hz frame time is 12.5 ms and 480 Hz frame time is 2.1 ms. With 20-40 milliseconds total latency being considered optimal for competitive game-play.
I honestly haven't seen total latency numbers that are anywhere near unplayable using MFG. Particularly in single player games.
So, while I highly doubt even the most sensitive gamers would feel the difference while using MFG, I know for a fact that they'd overwhelmingly be able to see the difference between say 80 Hz and 320 Hz.
The appropriate test would be a double blind study.
Image quality of generated frame would almost certainly scale with the base rasterized frame rate. I.E. generated frames would likely look better at 80 Hz than they would at 60 Hz or 30 Hz.
Digital Foundry was succinct when they said all frames are fake frames. I love Digital Foundry; they get it.
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Bry.89
Ray Reconstruction in Cyberpunk seems incredibly sensitive to my undervolt on my 4070 Super. It had otherwise been incredibly stable in everything I threw at it, but the day Cyberpunk got an update, it would just crash when I opened it. I found out, it's Ray Reconstruction. Disabling the setting fixed it and let me open it. I eventually tweaked my undervolt further and that finally let me in the game with ray reconstruction enabled. I did have a random crash after about two hours of playing around with the game however, so it's possible it's still sensitive to the undervolt.
Unsure why RR crashes cyberpunk with certain undervolted settings even before I load the actual game. It's done it on the intro screen when I open the game. Definitely unusual behavior. But running at stock it seems totally fine. And it's literally only RR being enabled causing this conflict.
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Ray Reconstruction in Cyberpunk seems incredibly sensitive to my undervolt on my 4070 Super. It had otherwise been incredibly stable in everything I threw at it, but the day Cyberpunk got an update, it would just crash when I opened it. I found out, it's Ray Reconstruction. Disabling the setting fixed it and let me open it. I eventually tweaked my undervolt further and that finally let me in the game with ray reconstruction enabled. I did have a random crash after about two hours of playing around with the game however, so it's possible it's still sensitive to the undervolt.
Unsure why RR crashes cyberpunk with certain undervolted settings even before I load the actual game. It's done it on the intro screen when I open the game. Definitely unusual behavior. But running at stock it seems totally fine. And it's literally only RR being enabled causing this conflict.
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IamJoker-r3b
NVIDIA just keeps getting worse. Lie, lie, and more lies. A MFG of deceptions. Also they take something open and then close it.Always closed systems from them, and it’s clear they profit from it. They’ve become a software company at this point.
Moreover, they’ve benefited from collective open-source efforts without even contributing to the development and improvement of the code. It's shameful to all the developers who spend their time every day contributing to open-source projects!
And measurement tools must be shared or verifiable, otherwise anyone can measure whatever they want! I will never buy an NVIDIA product, it's a company of liars. AMD and its 9070XT are on my way, and I can't wait to get my hands on it! Who cares about this garbage RTX 50 (10%) series and its more fake frames... the only real thing is the outrageous pricing!
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NVIDIA just keeps getting worse. Lie, lie, and more lies. A MFG of deceptions. Also they take something open and then close it.Always closed systems from them, and it’s clear they profit from it. They’ve become a software company at this point.
Moreover, they’ve benefited from collective open-source efforts without even contributing to the development and improvement of the code. It's shameful to all the developers who spend their time every day contributing to open-source projects!
And measurement tools must be shared or verifiable, otherwise anyone can measure whatever they want! I will never buy an NVIDIA product, it's a company of liars. AMD and its 9070XT are on my way, and I can't wait to get my hands on it! Who cares about this garbage RTX 50 (10%) series and its more fake frames... the only real thing is the outrageous pricing!
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jwhitaker81
Hmm, Lossless Scaling seems to work just fine on my 4090 when I have a good base 60 FPS. All the way out to 3x MFG with very little perceived input lag. Perceived input lag at 4x but playable. nvidia can't bring all of DLSS 4 to 40 series, sure. I've heard of many 20 and 30 series owners using LS on 70 and 80 class cards at 3x and 4x MFG with little issue. There hardware claims sound like a load of BS to me. The same manufacturing node as 40 series. More cores more power draw from all of 50 series. 2 2 =4 Sounds like a refresh release leaning heavily on software at best to me. At least nvidia was pro consumer enough to let all RTX users take advantage of DLSS4 minus MFG. LS to the rescue, should you need it. As for the measurement aspect, if nvidia played nice with everyone else some light might get shed somewhere they don't want it to shine.
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Hmm, Lossless Scaling seems to work just fine on my 4090 when I have a good base 60 FPS. All the way out to 3x MFG with very little perceived input lag. Perceived input lag at 4x but playable. nvidia can't bring all of DLSS 4 to 40 series, sure. I've heard of many 20 and 30 series owners using LS on 70 and 80 class cards at 3x and 4x MFG with little issue. There hardware claims sound like a load of BS to me. The same manufacturing node as 40 series. More cores more power draw from all of 50 series. 2 2 =4 Sounds like a refresh release leaning heavily on software at best to me. At least nvidia was pro consumer enough to let all RTX users take advantage of DLSS4 minus MFG. LS to the rescue, should you need it. As for the measurement aspect, if nvidia played nice with everyone else some light might get shed somewhere they don't want it to shine.
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BeckOfficial
I wonder if you could somehow make generated frames take mouse/keyboard inputs into account. If the generated frames are based on 3D space data with object data, effects and so on, in the 3D space, and a trained AI model for the specific game, I would imagine you could generate a frame based on that from the latest fully rendered frame. So your mouse/keyboard input would actually be registered in every fake frame reducing input latency massivly, since it's not interpolating but instead guessing what the image should look like based on a lot of data in real time. It might work for x2 frame-gen but anything above that I doubt it would look consisten enough to not have severe artifacting. At least at this stage of AI image generation.
Not sure if it would even be possible at all, but It's a fun topic to explore I think.
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I wonder if you could somehow make generated frames take mouse/keyboard inputs into account. If the generated frames are based on 3D space data with object data, effects and so on, in the 3D space, and a trained AI model for the specific game, I would imagine you could generate a frame based on that from the latest fully rendered frame. So your mouse/keyboard input would actually be registered in every fake frame reducing input latency massivly, since it's not interpolating but instead guessing what the image should look like based on a lot of data in real time. It might work for x2 frame-gen but anything above that I doubt it would look consisten enough to not have severe artifacting. At least at this stage of AI image generation.
Not sure if it would even be possible at all, but It's a fun topic to explore I think.
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relatingwinsss8477
steve me and a buddy both have had issues with our gpu’s since the driver update and have experienced blue screen and gpu just not utilizing itself while an application is running i have tried messing with everything i can think of but i still have utilization issues the blue screen were on launch and i haven’t had another yet but it only happened in BO6 but just in general i know all the games i have would have ran perfectly fine before the update but i think even rolling back didn’t work it’s very weird as in GTA5 it would jump from full util to idle and cause stuttering/very inconsistent frame rates another weird thing bodycam seems to be stuck around 60fps no matter what settings or resolution i set (i only have a 4060 but still recall around 90 in 1440p highest settings with FSR quality and FG
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steve me and a buddy both have had issues with our gpu’s since the driver update and have experienced blue screen and gpu just not utilizing itself while an application is running i have tried messing with everything i can think of but i still have utilization issues the blue screen were on launch and i haven’t had another yet but it only happened in BO6 but just in general i know all the games i have would have ran perfectly fine before the update but i think even rolling back didn’t work it’s very weird as in GTA5 it would jump from full util to idle and cause stuttering/very inconsistent frame rates another weird thing bodycam seems to be stuck around 60fps no matter what settings or resolution i set (i only have a 4060 but still recall around 90 in 1440p highest settings with FSR quality and FG
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aande1
09:22 Higher input rates means fresher data for frame generation. THIS is the thing many people seem to not understand. It simply means that (M)FG on the higher end GPUs will ALWAYS be better and thus more useful - having more base FPS will ALWAYS feel better. Inflating 27 base FPS (37ms) to 150FPS will feel worse than having 40FPS (25ms) inflated to 150FPS (the 40FPS card is 66% faster, roughly a 5070 vs a 5080 [estimation based on cores]). With added latency from FG, the former GPU will probably have an unacceptable feel, while the latter might still be ok. (M)FG only makes only sense if your base frames are high enough, with slower GPUs (< x080, yes I'm serious) playing with FG off will feel better but look worse, pick your poison.
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09:22 Higher input rates means fresher data for frame generation. THIS is the thing many people seem to not understand. It simply means that (M)FG on the higher end GPUs will ALWAYS be better and thus more useful - having more base FPS will ALWAYS feel better. Inflating 27 base FPS (37ms) to 150FPS will feel worse than having 40FPS (25ms) inflated to 150FPS (the 40FPS card is 66% faster, roughly a 5070 vs a 5080 [estimation based on cores]). With added latency from FG, the former GPU will probably have an unacceptable feel, while the latter might still be ok. (M)FG only makes only sense if your base frames are high enough, with slower GPUs (< x080, yes I'm serious) playing with FG off will feel better but look worse, pick your poison.
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jessietomich8043
All the products that would benefit the most from MFG are not going to be reasonably capable of using it. For instance, something like a handheld with limited battery could use it as a power savings by caping the real fps on a basic settings game to 30 or 60 fps and doubling it or more to make it feel more smooth. However, there are no integrated Nvidia GPUs, and even if some integrator decided to include a low end 50 series (two years from now when they come out) it would be unlikely to have enough of the required hardware to generate those frames. Due to Nvidia severely stripping anything under the 90 class of card.
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All the products that would benefit the most from MFG are not going to be reasonably capable of using it. For instance, something like a handheld with limited battery could use it as a power savings by caping the real fps on a basic settings game to 30 or 60 fps and doubling it or more to make it feel more smooth. However, there are no integrated Nvidia GPUs, and even if some integrator decided to include a low end 50 series (two years from now when they come out) it would be unlikely to have enough of the required hardware to generate those frames. Due to Nvidia severely stripping anything under the 90 class of card.
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gamersnexus
The whole situation is a hot mess. Don't like either AMD or nvidias frame generation methods since they often introduce artifacts and errors that make it appear like the gpu is defective or failing. Also, _to my eyes_ every attempt at dlss, fsr or xess just looks blur-tastic. It's like they're gaslighting me into thinking i have 20/100 vision or something equally horrible.
The marketing around the rtx 50 series, and nvidia blatantly selling a 5070 (historically) as a 5080, is if anything just making it all that much easier to lean towards getting a 7900xt/x, soon as i get my tax return for the year.
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The whole situation is a hot mess. Don't like either AMD or nvidias frame generation methods since they often introduce artifacts and errors that make it appear like the gpu is defective or failing. Also, _to my eyes_ every attempt at dlss, fsr or xess just looks blur-tastic. It's like they're gaslighting me into thinking i have 20/100 vision or something equally horrible.
The marketing around the rtx 50 series, and nvidia blatantly selling a 5070 (historically) as a 5080, is if anything just making it all that much easier to lean towards getting a 7900xt/x, soon as i get my tax return for the year.
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MattJDylan
24:36 this part left me like how watching PBS space time sometimes leaves me.
I'm like I've heard you used words, words that I know are in a language that (although not native) I can mostly understand, words that taken singularly I can kinda understand, but they haven't made any sense in the sequence and at the speed you spat out... so I'll have to rewind the video many times and analyze each sentence on a smaller scale, like every 2 words, to actually get the gist of it...
Anyway, shout out to Patrick: you can tell he isn't used to hosting, but did a his best and it was a good job indeed!
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24:36 this part left me like how watching PBS space time sometimes leaves me.
I'm like I've heard you used words, words that I know are in a language that (although not native) I can mostly understand, words that taken singularly I can kinda understand, but they haven't made any sense in the sequence and at the speed you spat out... so I'll have to rewind the video many times and analyze each sentence on a smaller scale, like every 2 words, to actually get the gist of it...
Anyway, shout out to Patrick: you can tell he isn't used to hosting, but did a his best and it was a good job indeed!
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shiftyidog-
Jensen acting like a superhero on stage with the Captain America silicon shield saying he is worthy of Thors hammer is so deranged.
Then outright admitting on stage that he is going to rake us over the coals to stuff his garbage in our 10,000 dollar battle stations is so embarrassing.
With 2 viable options in the space with team red team blue now and the fact that game developers are just as bad with their lazy optimization of their garbage I’m going back to 1080p and I wont buy another Nvidia GPU until they change their attitude towards the customers that have supported them.
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Jensen acting like a superhero on stage with the Captain America silicon shield saying he is worthy of Thors hammer is so deranged.
Then outright admitting on stage that he is going to rake us over the coals to stuff his garbage in our 10,000 dollar battle stations is so embarrassing.
With 2 viable options in the space with team red team blue now and the fact that game developers are just as bad with their lazy optimization of their garbage I’m going back to 1080p and I wont buy another Nvidia GPU until they change their attitude towards the customers that have supported them.
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Gayner-h3q
One of my friends doesn't see anything wrong with MFG, but my problem with it is thinking of it in another way.
Before: You'd go to a restaurant and pay extra for a premium cut of meat for your steak dinner. (GPUs with raw horsepower to render frames)
Now: You're paying the same price for a portion that's physically larger, but now there's beyond meat product in it, and the ratio of real to fake meat has been diluted down to 30:70. Not only that, we should be thanking the chef and not complain about the difference in taste.
How will this benefit us
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One of my friends doesn't see anything wrong with MFG, but my problem with it is thinking of it in another way.
Before: You'd go to a restaurant and pay extra for a premium cut of meat for your steak dinner. (GPUs with raw horsepower to render frames)
Now: You're paying the same price for a portion that's physically larger, but now there's beyond meat product in it, and the ratio of real to fake meat has been diluted down to 30:70. Not only that, we should be thanking the chef and not complain about the difference in taste.
How will this benefit us
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sandorbence2067
Under all the marketing and misleading inforamtion, frame gen is someting that is really important and came a long way in the last few years. I was hoping that the minimun viable framerate would lower with something like this and I could get enjoayble results from a stable 20-25 fps base (for good FSR 3.1 in my experience that is currently 35-40 fps instead) making IGP gaming absolutely possible. On the other hand I play and plan plan to play with an IGP, if I had to deal with this on a 5090 level card to get good results, I'd be pissed.
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Under all the marketing and misleading inforamtion, frame gen is someting that is really important and came a long way in the last few years. I was hoping that the minimun viable framerate would lower with something like this and I could get enjoayble results from a stable 20-25 fps base (for good FSR 3.1 in my experience that is currently 35-40 fps instead) making IGP gaming absolutely possible. On the other hand I play and plan plan to play with an IGP, if I had to deal with this on a 5090 level card to get good results, I'd be pissed.
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evangraessle1674
Nvidia made many questionable or misleading statements, but the idea that multi-frame generated images can predict the future is basically true.
Now I understand why Steve called it misleading, because multi-frame gen cannot improve latency, but the fact remains that generated frames produce data which corresponds (or fails to correspond) to aspects of the game state which have yet to be calculated. So in that sense, it is always trying to predict what will happen next based on the most up-to-date frame data it has access to.
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Nvidia made many questionable or misleading statements, but the idea that multi-frame generated images can predict the future is basically true.
Now I understand why Steve called it misleading, because multi-frame gen cannot improve latency, but the fact remains that generated frames produce data which corresponds (or fails to correspond) to aspects of the game state which have yet to be calculated. So in that sense, it is always trying to predict what will happen next based on the most up-to-date frame data it has access to.
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Your_Degenerate
The description of MFG being an intelligent interpolation of the past reminds me of client side prediction. If I understand correctly client side prediction fills in the frames between server states reported by a server. The rate at which the server keeps track of the state of everything is it's tic rate. In some old games a server tic rate might default to 24 per second. Since most people are playing at a higher frame rate this prediction fills in the blanks between each server state reported to the client.
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The description of MFG being an intelligent interpolation of the past reminds me of client side prediction. If I understand correctly client side prediction fills in the frames between server states reported by a server. The rate at which the server keeps track of the state of everything is it's tic rate. In some old games a server tic rate might default to 24 per second. Since most people are playing at a higher frame rate this prediction fills in the blanks between each server state reported to the client.
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HybridEnergy
I play VR on Steam, a good chunk of it in simulators, I haven't seen a single game use any of this fake frame nonsense with the exception of Steams motion smoothing or any RT or silly DLSS options. Just give us more rasterization performance Nvidia you silly goose. Features are DOA if they are not hardware enabled and require devs to specifically implement them, thus always leaving them to that specific niche of a game. You know, not everyone is playing Cyberpunk 2077 all day long.
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I play VR on Steam, a good chunk of it in simulators, I haven't seen a single game use any of this fake frame nonsense with the exception of Steams motion smoothing or any RT or silly DLSS options. Just give us more rasterization performance Nvidia you silly goose. Features are DOA if they are not hardware enabled and require devs to specifically implement them, thus always leaving them to that specific niche of a game. You know, not everyone is playing Cyberpunk 2077 all day long.
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AFistfulOf4K
I use Lossless Scaling 2X framegen (which works worse than Nvidia's) to interpolate 120 to 240 and I really wish at least a few of the people hyperventilating about the subject would consider actually trying fake frames before losing terminally malding over them. 1 frame of added input lag at 120hz is 8ms and nobody I've shown can tell the difference between interpolated 120 and native 240 in the handful of games I have that can run at 240 natively (Deep Rock, etc).
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I use Lossless Scaling 2X framegen (which works worse than Nvidia's) to interpolate 120 to 240 and I really wish at least a few of the people hyperventilating about the subject would consider actually trying fake frames before losing terminally malding over them. 1 frame of added input lag at 120hz is 8ms and nobody I've shown can tell the difference between interpolated 120 and native 240 in the handful of games I have that can run at 240 natively (Deep Rock, etc).
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gamersnexus
I'm confused, i'm using lossless scaling from steam atm, better by miles than any amd counterpart, unsure on dlsss, the downside being its not related to the game but the whole monitor.
Little caveats but this thing is literally downloaded frames for me, and clearly usable in everything, really really odd that there isn't a more elegant solution from AMD at least (I tried their driver option, compared to lossless scaling its.... its bad... really bad)
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I'm confused, i'm using lossless scaling from steam atm, better by miles than any amd counterpart, unsure on dlsss, the downside being its not related to the game but the whole monitor.
Little caveats but this thing is literally downloaded frames for me, and clearly usable in everything, really really odd that there isn't a more elegant solution from AMD at least (I tried their driver option, compared to lossless scaling its.... its bad... really bad)
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0xfolling
Really wish more people were upset about the way nvidia handles software. I get most GN viewers are here for the hardware side of things, but nvidia has treated the OSS community like shit for years, benefiting from other people's work substantially and never returning the favour. AMD with all its fault has a much healthier relationship with the OSS community and opens its own platform for transparency, cooperation, standardisation and open innovation.
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Really wish more people were upset about the way nvidia handles software. I get most GN viewers are here for the hardware side of things, but nvidia has treated the OSS community like shit for years, benefiting from other people's work substantially and never returning the favour. AMD with all its fault has a much healthier relationship with the OSS community and opens its own platform for transparency, cooperation, standardisation and open innovation.
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