LAWSUIT: Lian Li vs. Phanteks & Thermaltake Special Report
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Date: 2023-11-19
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Comments and reviews: 20
Mike
Disclosure: I've had involvement in patents and previously submitted a patent application that we subsequently discovered was invalidated by 'prior art'. But as a result, I'm more knowledgeable than most. Patent law is among the most complicated and expensive areas of law. The devil truly is in the detail of how things are defined. If you define a way in which something is done too precisely, then it enables someone to do something in a slightly different way and avoid violating the patent. But also, your patent has to be sufficiently innovative that it isn't 'obvious'. For example, just adding a handle to something is not likely to be considered sufficiently innovative. It could be suggested that clipping things together using slide locks that includes electrical connections may well have been used somewhere else, and simply applying an existing technique used elsewhere to a different application may not be considered sufficiently novel, and could result in the original patent being undermined.
This happened when (if I remember correctly) Windsurfer international were suing Bic, saying they had infringed their windsurfer patents. Someone connected with the case remembered that his friend had built something very similar when he was younger where I used to live, Hayling Island. Photographs were duly produced that pre-dated Windsurfer's patents of a young guy using something that resembled a windsurfer and had all the key components of Windsurfer's patent. As a result, Windsurfer's key patents were invalidated.
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Disclosure: I've had involvement in patents and previously submitted a patent application that we subsequently discovered was invalidated by 'prior art'. But as a result, I'm more knowledgeable than most. Patent law is among the most complicated and expensive areas of law. The devil truly is in the detail of how things are defined. If you define a way in which something is done too precisely, then it enables someone to do something in a slightly different way and avoid violating the patent. But also, your patent has to be sufficiently innovative that it isn't 'obvious'. For example, just adding a handle to something is not likely to be considered sufficiently innovative. It could be suggested that clipping things together using slide locks that includes electrical connections may well have been used somewhere else, and simply applying an existing technique used elsewhere to a different application may not be considered sufficiently novel, and could result in the original patent being undermined.
This happened when (if I remember correctly) Windsurfer international were suing Bic, saying they had infringed their windsurfer patents. Someone connected with the case remembered that his friend had built something very similar when he was younger where I used to live, Hayling Island. Photographs were duly produced that pre-dated Windsurfer's patents of a young guy using something that resembled a windsurfer and had all the key components of Windsurfer's patent. As a result, Windsurfer's key patents were invalidated.
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LegacyStar
I'd be surprised if this ever ends up in front of a jury.
Now I don't know what stage they are on in this ordeal and I really don't care enough to look more into it but there are a lot of options Phanteks and Thermaltake have. The patents are probably going to end up basically being reexamined to so if the claims are valid, the patent should have been issued, anything to get out of the lawsuit early. And that will be done as the USPTO, if it hasn't already been done. That could take a couple years, just to slowly work back an forth. They don't even need to argue here that they solved the issue in their own patents, because the process for this doesn't would only be looking at the Lian Li patent, and if it gets knocked out the whole thing is basically over.
Then they'd be sent to arbitration to hopefully settle things, but it's probably unlikely to at that point. Then it should go back to court and the process starts, which could take even more years depending on how things get delayed.
After all that you show up before the judge, and you have your arguments trying to convince someone who likely has no technical knowledge in the field you're the one who is right. You might even be, but if the opposition can get the judge hung up on one little thing, even if it shouldn't actually affect the case, they can put out a summary judgement and you lose. You don't even get a jury. Make it all the way through that and you finally get a trial with a jury though.
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I'd be surprised if this ever ends up in front of a jury.
Now I don't know what stage they are on in this ordeal and I really don't care enough to look more into it but there are a lot of options Phanteks and Thermaltake have. The patents are probably going to end up basically being reexamined to so if the claims are valid, the patent should have been issued, anything to get out of the lawsuit early. And that will be done as the USPTO, if it hasn't already been done. That could take a couple years, just to slowly work back an forth. They don't even need to argue here that they solved the issue in their own patents, because the process for this doesn't would only be looking at the Lian Li patent, and if it gets knocked out the whole thing is basically over.
Then they'd be sent to arbitration to hopefully settle things, but it's probably unlikely to at that point. Then it should go back to court and the process starts, which could take even more years depending on how things get delayed.
After all that you show up before the judge, and you have your arguments trying to convince someone who likely has no technical knowledge in the field you're the one who is right. You might even be, but if the opposition can get the judge hung up on one little thing, even if it shouldn't actually affect the case, they can put out a summary judgement and you lose. You don't even get a jury. Make it all the way through that and you finally get a trial with a jury though.
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TheGamefaq
I think there will now be 2 companies that will be watching this legal dispute closely. Especially when it comes to the technical characteristics, when the patents from Lian Li and Phantaks are copied or where they are identical. These 2 companies are Arctic and bequeit! . Because neither of them have yet released any RGB fans where the fan frames are connected to one another in order to save cable clutter.
Arctic has already successfully defended itself against Asetek with its AIO water cooling systems, who had sued practically everyone who built an AIO because of their patents. So when the time is right, Arctic will inevitably come up with their own system that won't infringe any patents. However, the choice of connection type will be interesting because Lian Li now has clipping, Phantecks has clip-on connection and Thermaltake uses magnets (without a patent for it).
When be quiet! and arctic want to avoid license fees, theoretically the only option they have is the magent system...
Even if I have zero interest in the whole A-RGB stuff. For me, the tower is traditionally under the table and simply has to run/work quietly... the future will be interesting in that regard... :)
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I think there will now be 2 companies that will be watching this legal dispute closely. Especially when it comes to the technical characteristics, when the patents from Lian Li and Phantaks are copied or where they are identical. These 2 companies are Arctic and bequeit! . Because neither of them have yet released any RGB fans where the fan frames are connected to one another in order to save cable clutter.
Arctic has already successfully defended itself against Asetek with its AIO water cooling systems, who had sued practically everyone who built an AIO because of their patents. So when the time is right, Arctic will inevitably come up with their own system that won't infringe any patents. However, the choice of connection type will be interesting because Lian Li now has clipping, Phantecks has clip-on connection and Thermaltake uses magnets (without a patent for it).
When be quiet! and arctic want to avoid license fees, theoretically the only option they have is the magent system...
Even if I have zero interest in the whole A-RGB stuff. For me, the tower is traditionally under the table and simply has to run/work quietly... the future will be interesting in that regard... :)
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QuantumS1ngularity
According to my non-attorney-regular-customer eye, Phanteks are all clear on that one. Not only do their fans have connections going on the same side of the fan, but they require a separate bridge to connect all the fans to each other. Only the fans alone are NOT enough to power the entire assembly, you need the bridges, which means the fan body alone isn't enough to carry over the signal. It's different enough design that it shouldn't hold up in reasonable court. Thermaltake on the other hand, well, looks like they are in the deep end. For them it would be better to settle that one out of the court..
But the funniest thing is LianLi NOT going after Corsair at all.
P.S
I just watched the legal fees segment and now i understand why everyone in America sues for the smallest possible thing. Over here in Europe, i think it's continent-wide practice where the losing party covers the legal fees for the winning. That makes people and companies thinking twice before picking up a legal battle. Also almost always the defendants can sue for damages and lost revenue which i think is fair.
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According to my non-attorney-regular-customer eye, Phanteks are all clear on that one. Not only do their fans have connections going on the same side of the fan, but they require a separate bridge to connect all the fans to each other. Only the fans alone are NOT enough to power the entire assembly, you need the bridges, which means the fan body alone isn't enough to carry over the signal. It's different enough design that it shouldn't hold up in reasonable court. Thermaltake on the other hand, well, looks like they are in the deep end. For them it would be better to settle that one out of the court..
But the funniest thing is LianLi NOT going after Corsair at all.
P.S
I just watched the legal fees segment and now i understand why everyone in America sues for the smallest possible thing. Over here in Europe, i think it's continent-wide practice where the losing party covers the legal fees for the winning. That makes people and companies thinking twice before picking up a legal battle. Also almost always the defendants can sue for damages and lost revenue which i think is fair.
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Douglas
Thermaltake is basically guaranteed to attack the patent, as they don't need to worry about losing their own patent. And the fact that both patents were issued isn't a proof of validation of the fundamental merits of the innovation that was patented. It's well known that the PTO is overworked and understaffed, and patents are granted much more frequently than they should as long as the filing meets certain standards as the patent application reviewers are not fully trained on every aspect of technology.
I would argue that both patents should never have been granted, as similar linking methods have been used in other markets - notice they didn't invent anything new to enable this form of daisy chaining as all the tech already existed. So while Lian Li was first, it's all prior art & obvious to an expert in the field. The companies just didn't do it for years due to a lack of care, the cost, and the fact that the market hadn't yet turned to no more visible wires like we have now.
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Thermaltake is basically guaranteed to attack the patent, as they don't need to worry about losing their own patent. And the fact that both patents were issued isn't a proof of validation of the fundamental merits of the innovation that was patented. It's well known that the PTO is overworked and understaffed, and patents are granted much more frequently than they should as long as the filing meets certain standards as the patent application reviewers are not fully trained on every aspect of technology.
I would argue that both patents should never have been granted, as similar linking methods have been used in other markets - notice they didn't invent anything new to enable this form of daisy chaining as all the tech already existed. So while Lian Li was first, it's all prior art & obvious to an expert in the field. The companies just didn't do it for years due to a lack of care, the cost, and the fact that the market hadn't yet turned to no more visible wires like we have now.
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DexMaster881
By Lian Li logic Mercedes-Benz Can Sue Every car manufacturer on the Planet because they are making a car.
That was Invented by Karl Benz.
And Karl can be sued by Whomever invented the Horse carriage with 4 wheels.
And that person can Be sued by whomever invented the chariot.
And that person could probably be sued by a horse.
With all respect to them for making Exorbitantly priced PC components they can F off with the monopoly attempts.
As for you Steve thank you for pointing out What Lian Li lawyers need to focus on to get their Monopoly going on.
I get your good intent, but you are not gonna make them stop and rethink, you just helped their case.
you saved some Million company some time and money and time=money. :)
My great grandfather once told me: Sometimes for good people to really be helpful the best choice is to do nothing...
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By Lian Li logic Mercedes-Benz Can Sue Every car manufacturer on the Planet because they are making a car.
That was Invented by Karl Benz.
And Karl can be sued by Whomever invented the Horse carriage with 4 wheels.
And that person can Be sued by whomever invented the chariot.
And that person could probably be sued by a horse.
With all respect to them for making Exorbitantly priced PC components they can F off with the monopoly attempts.
As for you Steve thank you for pointing out What Lian Li lawyers need to focus on to get their Monopoly going on.
I get your good intent, but you are not gonna make them stop and rethink, you just helped their case.
you saved some Million company some time and money and time=money. :)
My great grandfather once told me: Sometimes for good people to really be helpful the best choice is to do nothing...
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Graham
Initial reaction before actually investing 45 mins to the video:
This makes me sad that I just bought an O11 Dynamic Evo. Lian-Li actively working to stifle the market moving forward from cable soups inside the case to attempt to monopolize the market absolutely disgusts me as a PC enthusiast. Daisy chaining of this level has been something consumers have been needing for the longest time. For Lian-Li to actively work against enabling this tech to spread to the entire market, cannot be understated how disappointing this is to see.
Also, it's kind of rich for a Chinese/Taiwanese (depending on how you look at the politics of it) company to start a patent infringement case against Europeans (Phanteks is a Dutch company) and another Chinese/Taiwanese company (Thermaltake), considering the Chinese are well renowned for not respecting patents worldwide...
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Initial reaction before actually investing 45 mins to the video:
This makes me sad that I just bought an O11 Dynamic Evo. Lian-Li actively working to stifle the market moving forward from cable soups inside the case to attempt to monopolize the market absolutely disgusts me as a PC enthusiast. Daisy chaining of this level has been something consumers have been needing for the longest time. For Lian-Li to actively work against enabling this tech to spread to the entire market, cannot be understated how disappointing this is to see.
Also, it's kind of rich for a Chinese/Taiwanese (depending on how you look at the politics of it) company to start a patent infringement case against Europeans (Phanteks is a Dutch company) and another Chinese/Taiwanese company (Thermaltake), considering the Chinese are well renowned for not respecting patents worldwide...
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Adam's
Fans that connect like that have been a thing for years in industry. The RGB part is perhaps new. But fans/wires that extend without the need for extra wires has long been a thing. All they have done is made the chain of power also do RGB. Essentially, they are saying plugging RGB into a fan or with a fan is their design. Can't see how they will win this this both RGB fans and the daisy chain thing being in existence for years. I dono about anyone else here but soldering wires together to make them shorter and connected is also nothing new. Thats essentially also what they have done just using a connector. Perhaps the connector could be patented but the idea of daisy chaining cannot. Just like how the shape of LEGO is patented but the idea of stacking blocks is not. (thats why you see knock off lego with like square instead of round holes/bumps)
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Fans that connect like that have been a thing for years in industry. The RGB part is perhaps new. But fans/wires that extend without the need for extra wires has long been a thing. All they have done is made the chain of power also do RGB. Essentially, they are saying plugging RGB into a fan or with a fan is their design. Can't see how they will win this this both RGB fans and the daisy chain thing being in existence for years. I dono about anyone else here but soldering wires together to make them shorter and connected is also nothing new. Thats essentially also what they have done just using a connector. Perhaps the connector could be patented but the idea of daisy chaining cannot. Just like how the shape of LEGO is patented but the idea of stacking blocks is not. (thats why you see knock off lego with like square instead of round holes/bumps)
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Hebu
why cant these companies just work together and make a universal fan link connector that work the best and would bring the overall cost down since they dont need to spend on R&D
also they could make some cheaper options. i would buy if there was a 3 fan kit for 60-70 that just plugs directly to motherboard and dont need any special RGB controller. ye less light modes and effects but i would just use one static colour anyway. and i know im not alone. i never rly been into RGB effects or anything. i like RGB bc it makes colour matching a build easier instead of having to buy bunch of led fans with only handful of colour options
heck. even linkable fans with out leds would be nice. more seamless linking and less wire cluster is win in my book
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why cant these companies just work together and make a universal fan link connector that work the best and would bring the overall cost down since they dont need to spend on R&D
also they could make some cheaper options. i would buy if there was a 3 fan kit for 60-70 that just plugs directly to motherboard and dont need any special RGB controller. ye less light modes and effects but i would just use one static colour anyway. and i know im not alone. i never rly been into RGB effects or anything. i like RGB bc it makes colour matching a build easier instead of having to buy bunch of led fans with only handful of colour options
heck. even linkable fans with out leds would be nice. more seamless linking and less wire cluster is win in my book
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korosaki13
Tough question, on one part I feel like, having this patent exist is kinda bad because having companys iterate on a concept might and be able to compete might push for better product. But on the other hand idk that this is an essential thing to have on a fan, I feel like consumer might go for looks, then airflow/price, and then maybe ease of instalation. But maybe having less cable also goes into looks in wich case Lian Li clearly is at a loss if it's competitor are still able to use this technologie.
Edit: love to see Vincent always good to learn a thing or two, while listening to a topic, that otherwise would kinda trivial to me. GN really knows how to bring value to their audience.
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Tough question, on one part I feel like, having this patent exist is kinda bad because having companys iterate on a concept might and be able to compete might push for better product. But on the other hand idk that this is an essential thing to have on a fan, I feel like consumer might go for looks, then airflow/price, and then maybe ease of instalation. But maybe having less cable also goes into looks in wich case Lian Li clearly is at a loss if it's competitor are still able to use this technologie.
Edit: love to see Vincent always good to learn a thing or two, while listening to a topic, that otherwise would kinda trivial to me. GN really knows how to bring value to their audience.
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Mike
Given that someone has mentioned that Corsair is NOT being sued, probably because they are too big, there is potential danger there for the litigant. I'm not familiar with Corsair's technology, but IF Corsair's technology was arguably closer to Liang Li's technology than the people they are suing, the people they are suing can argue that the real basis is not about technology but about power as you are expected to take legal action to protect your intellectual property when it is violated. You can't just pick and choose who you sue, because if you don't sue someone violating your intellectual property then you are effectively letting it lapse.
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Given that someone has mentioned that Corsair is NOT being sued, probably because they are too big, there is potential danger there for the litigant. I'm not familiar with Corsair's technology, but IF Corsair's technology was arguably closer to Liang Li's technology than the people they are suing, the people they are suing can argue that the real basis is not about technology but about power as you are expected to take legal action to protect your intellectual property when it is violated. You can't just pick and choose who you sue, because if you don't sue someone violating your intellectual property then you are effectively letting it lapse.
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Shukaz
Yeah no, the design is too basic to even call it infringing, a pad connector that transfers electricity to the fan power and led lighting then continue on it's route to the other connector (another argument of daisy chaining electricity from the beginning of discovery of energy), surely this is the same technology as a watch with pads that charges from a charger or in comparison to fundamentals that of wireless charging, in which both forms can be magnetic or hinged.
This is simply ridiculous and the case should be thrown out or set a precedent that neither patent should be valid and shouldn't be valid in the present and future thereof.
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Yeah no, the design is too basic to even call it infringing, a pad connector that transfers electricity to the fan power and led lighting then continue on it's route to the other connector (another argument of daisy chaining electricity from the beginning of discovery of energy), surely this is the same technology as a watch with pads that charges from a charger or in comparison to fundamentals that of wireless charging, in which both forms can be magnetic or hinged.
This is simply ridiculous and the case should be thrown out or set a precedent that neither patent should be valid and shouldn't be valid in the present and future thereof.
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Demon1337
SO me personally I still think this isn't going anywhere. It looks like their argument is that the infringing fans are using a connection method from fan to fan that also includes illumination. Which I am pretty sure Corsair already did this, but instead of using a on body connector they used an actual cable. I had this as my first fans in my case back in like 2015. They also can't claim the pogo connector, this has been used in programming microchips and other things for at least a decade. The only one I can see that they have any kind of actual argument against is Thermaltake. But even that is difficult to say.
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SO me personally I still think this isn't going anywhere. It looks like their argument is that the infringing fans are using a connection method from fan to fan that also includes illumination. Which I am pretty sure Corsair already did this, but instead of using a on body connector they used an actual cable. I had this as my first fans in my case back in like 2015. They also can't claim the pogo connector, this has been used in programming microchips and other things for at least a decade. The only one I can see that they have any kind of actual argument against is Thermaltake. But even that is difficult to say.
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taiiat
eh, i don't personally feel like these designs are similar enough. Pogo Pins and Pads is not something unique, and the location you happen to put them isn't actually significant to the functionality.
Thermaltakes' Fans are fairly similar, though they are using Magnets rather than Clips, which is a notable difference in actual use. even so, i could see Thermaltake getting pinned since that's the main difference between theirs and Lian Li. Thermaltake ever uses a very similar type of Cable.
however, Phanteks is VERY different in my opinion. sharing nearly nothing in common with the other two here.
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eh, i don't personally feel like these designs are similar enough. Pogo Pins and Pads is not something unique, and the location you happen to put them isn't actually significant to the functionality.
Thermaltakes' Fans are fairly similar, though they are using Magnets rather than Clips, which is a notable difference in actual use. even so, i could see Thermaltake getting pinned since that's the main difference between theirs and Lian Li. Thermaltake ever uses a very similar type of Cable.
however, Phanteks is VERY different in my opinion. sharing nearly nothing in common with the other two here.
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oliknow
My View before watching: Patenting connections on opposing sides of the fan can't be a part of the patent. Fans are usually in a row, vertivcal or horizantal, which makes opposing side connection a simple technical necessatiy and this can't be part of a patent. spring tensioned pins for electrical connection also is old concept. having no wires also won't hold since the fan body is the only chance to have connection through. lastly, no product is cross compatible, you always buy into a system and usually the best manufacturer is chosen buy a customer. make the best fan equals to highest marketshare
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My View before watching: Patenting connections on opposing sides of the fan can't be a part of the patent. Fans are usually in a row, vertivcal or horizantal, which makes opposing side connection a simple technical necessatiy and this can't be part of a patent. spring tensioned pins for electrical connection also is old concept. having no wires also won't hold since the fan body is the only chance to have connection through. lastly, no product is cross compatible, you always buy into a system and usually the best manufacturer is chosen buy a customer. make the best fan equals to highest marketshare
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itech
I think the Phanteks is different. Not only because of the side of the connectors, but the way the connector works.
I am not a lawyer, but I don't know how it makes a different if the LED is in the case or in the fan itself. There is power for LEDs and fan, that should matter. LianLi did not invent to put LED into fans/fan cases. Or did they?
So, is this only a question of design or who invented what?
Law can be strange. Especially if it comes to protection of design or patents.
Also, will this have a different effect in Europe and Asia?
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I think the Phanteks is different. Not only because of the side of the connectors, but the way the connector works.
I am not a lawyer, but I don't know how it makes a different if the LED is in the case or in the fan itself. There is power for LEDs and fan, that should matter. LianLi did not invent to put LED into fans/fan cases. Or did they?
So, is this only a question of design or who invented what?
Law can be strange. Especially if it comes to protection of design or patents.
Also, will this have a different effect in Europe and Asia?
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Gareth
The implementation of PWM is surprisingly complicated (the PWM frequency is 25kHz), I see Intel published the initial intel-4wire-pwm-fans-specs release exactly 20 years ago (that is one hell of a coincidence!) .
I wish companies would work together to realise a combined RGB/PWM connector. Come to think of it we're getting awfully close to recreating USB on a fan. Maybe that is the way to go: PWM plus another line of pins for USB.
It is a coincidence, just interesting timing. The universerse has a sense of humour.
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The implementation of PWM is surprisingly complicated (the PWM frequency is 25kHz), I see Intel published the initial intel-4wire-pwm-fans-specs release exactly 20 years ago (that is one hell of a coincidence!) .
I wish companies would work together to realise a combined RGB/PWM connector. Come to think of it we're getting awfully close to recreating USB on a fan. Maybe that is the way to go: PWM plus another line of pins for USB.
It is a coincidence, just interesting timing. The universerse has a sense of humour.
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Ryzen
Man Lian-Li has nothing else to do? They have the ressources to sue other brands, but don't have any to hire someone for their customer service?
I bought a Lian-Li Air Mini 6 months ago and the case has an issue. The site where I bought it told me they can't do anything about it and said I have to adress Lian-Li customer service directly.
After an automatic email saying they have received my request... nothing. 7 emails and 6 months later .. nothing. Customer service is non existent... What a s company.
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Man Lian-Li has nothing else to do? They have the ressources to sue other brands, but don't have any to hire someone for their customer service?
I bought a Lian-Li Air Mini 6 months ago and the case has an issue. The site where I bought it told me they can't do anything about it and said I have to adress Lian-Li customer service directly.
After an automatic email saying they have received my request... nothing. 7 emails and 6 months later .. nothing. Customer service is non existent... What a s company.
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Brandon
Hey Steve. I just built my first computer, and I purchased the corsair link 360 AIO on accident, not knowing what Link meant.
At first, I was pissed. It was completely incompatible with my corsair hub and my other fans. I either wasted 150, or 150+. After doing more research on the link system(and looking at the mess of wires that are a normal rgb fan setup) I went with the link system. It is MUCH cleaner, just make sure you plan out the wire layout before installing everything.
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Hey Steve. I just built my first computer, and I purchased the corsair link 360 AIO on accident, not knowing what Link meant.
At first, I was pissed. It was completely incompatible with my corsair hub and my other fans. I either wasted 150, or 150+. After doing more research on the link system(and looking at the mess of wires that are a normal rgb fan setup) I went with the link system. It is MUCH cleaner, just make sure you plan out the wire layout before installing everything.
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Ray
I am a RGB hater, but I can understand why people like to make funfair rides out of their PCs. Still this is the most ridicolous and overprized product I ve seen in a while.... How many spots are there in a case where you need/want to daisy chain fans? If you go really overboard you ve got 5 connections between fans. Hiding those cables is super easy.. So why spending so much money on such a product that probably also fails way more easily than the usual fans...
Still a good video.
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I am a RGB hater, but I can understand why people like to make funfair rides out of their PCs. Still this is the most ridicolous and overprized product I ve seen in a while.... How many spots are there in a case where you need/want to daisy chain fans? If you go really overboard you ve got 5 connections between fans. Hiding those cables is super easy.. So why spending so much money on such a product that probably also fails way more easily than the usual fans...
Still a good video.
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