Salt Batteries are FINALLY Here! Sooo should you use them
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Date: 2024-03-25
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Comments and reviews: 20
trolioharambe2031
Hard to give a shit about the enviroment when you live paycheck to paycheck and all you can afford is a old gasoline powered car.
Of course rich people can afford teslas or new cars in general, we can't.
This is why nobody likes enviromental nuts, because they do not talk from the perspective of poor people. They talk from the perspective of those who have daddys credit card or are part of the elite. Greta Thunberg for example has a net worth of a million dollars and also have a sizeable inheritance to get. The suggestions they provide are also awful, and are especially hostile to rural people. The same people who grow and raise the very food you insulated reality denying bastards eat.
These batteries are a good step in the right direction, but because of ever increasing costs while salaries stay mostly stagnant, electrical cars will still be far out of reach for normal people. Unless you are willing to buy a 10k produced chinese electrical car that may or may not blow up while you drive it (the chinese don't give a single shit about standards and certifications, you get what you pay for) and has a range of a pitifully low 120-200 km and the horsepower of a car from a century ago.
But that is apperently fine for people like Greta, because again they don't have to take the consequences of their policies they scream about everyday.
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Hard to give a shit about the enviroment when you live paycheck to paycheck and all you can afford is a old gasoline powered car.
Of course rich people can afford teslas or new cars in general, we can't.
This is why nobody likes enviromental nuts, because they do not talk from the perspective of poor people. They talk from the perspective of those who have daddys credit card or are part of the elite. Greta Thunberg for example has a net worth of a million dollars and also have a sizeable inheritance to get. The suggestions they provide are also awful, and are especially hostile to rural people. The same people who grow and raise the very food you insulated reality denying bastards eat.
These batteries are a good step in the right direction, but because of ever increasing costs while salaries stay mostly stagnant, electrical cars will still be far out of reach for normal people. Unless you are willing to buy a 10k produced chinese electrical car that may or may not blow up while you drive it (the chinese don't give a single shit about standards and certifications, you get what you pay for) and has a range of a pitifully low 120-200 km and the horsepower of a car from a century ago.
But that is apperently fine for people like Greta, because again they don't have to take the consequences of their policies they scream about everyday.
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korishan
It's interesting that you say that the Sodium Battery (aka NIBs or SIBs) aren't in mass production. However, there are EVs that are currently in production using this chemistry. They aren't 18650, or similarly, sized.
JAC Group’s Yiwei, a new EV brand in China backed by Volkswagen, debuted the first sodium-ion battery-powered electric car. The new JAC Yiwei EV rolled off the assembly line Wednesday. Dec 2023
According to CnEvPost, JMEV, an EV brand owned by Jiangling Motors Group, will offer a version of its EV3 fitted with sodium ion batteries from Farasis Energy next year. The first of those cars rolled off the assembly line on December 28, 2023.
The bummer part is that the density is almost half of that of Li-Ion. However, it can be recharged far faster and safer than Li-Ion, making time at a regen station significantly shorter.
Overall, I think these would great for home energy storage without the risk of potential random fire happening, meaning they can be stored close to or even inside the home
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It's interesting that you say that the Sodium Battery (aka NIBs or SIBs) aren't in mass production. However, there are EVs that are currently in production using this chemistry. They aren't 18650, or similarly, sized.
JAC Group’s Yiwei, a new EV brand in China backed by Volkswagen, debuted the first sodium-ion battery-powered electric car. The new JAC Yiwei EV rolled off the assembly line Wednesday. Dec 2023
According to CnEvPost, JMEV, an EV brand owned by Jiangling Motors Group, will offer a version of its EV3 fitted with sodium ion batteries from Farasis Energy next year. The first of those cars rolled off the assembly line on December 28, 2023.
The bummer part is that the density is almost half of that of Li-Ion. However, it can be recharged far faster and safer than Li-Ion, making time at a regen station significantly shorter.
Overall, I think these would great for home energy storage without the risk of potential random fire happening, meaning they can be stored close to or even inside the home
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OffGridSupplies
My supplier offered me a bunch of 210AH sodium batteries for about 20% more than my current LFP cells. I decided not to use them because the application was parallel connection with stacks of LFP cells and the voltage curve is very different.
Looking at the data sheets it became clear that the sodium cells were not as electrically robust as LFP but I think this is partly because they are only now starting mass production and will improve over time. What is really interesting is sodium cells are much easier to determine SOC because they don't have the time latency in settling to their nominal voltage. LFP cells can take a couple of hours to stabilise making EV applications very challenging as the vehicle sucks and dumps lumps of power into the cells. You have to do a lot of coulomb counting and hope you know the correct pack capacity.
Low temperature operation appears to be better with sodium compared with LFP.
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My supplier offered me a bunch of 210AH sodium batteries for about 20% more than my current LFP cells. I decided not to use them because the application was parallel connection with stacks of LFP cells and the voltage curve is very different.
Looking at the data sheets it became clear that the sodium cells were not as electrically robust as LFP but I think this is partly because they are only now starting mass production and will improve over time. What is really interesting is sodium cells are much easier to determine SOC because they don't have the time latency in settling to their nominal voltage. LFP cells can take a couple of hours to stabilise making EV applications very challenging as the vehicle sucks and dumps lumps of power into the cells. You have to do a lot of coulomb counting and hope you know the correct pack capacity.
Low temperature operation appears to be better with sodium compared with LFP.
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haydenc2742
So compared to charge cycles of LiIon, do these hold up much longer. I might only have like 1/2 the power capacity of liIon, but if they are alot cheaper. maybe they could be viable replacements. and if made in larger cell sizes instead of 18650's maybe they could be used for replacements for lead acid batteries in cars. who knows
definitely do more videos on these!
In December of 2022 it was reported that a company named HiNa in partnership with Chines state-owned China Three Gorges Corporation, had started mass production of sodium-ion batteries. The first generation of HiNa batteries offer energy density figures of 125Wh/kg, which is around half that of lithium-ion batteries. However, these batteries are rated for around 4500 charge cycles, which is significantly more than typical lithium-ion batteries.
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So compared to charge cycles of LiIon, do these hold up much longer. I might only have like 1/2 the power capacity of liIon, but if they are alot cheaper. maybe they could be viable replacements. and if made in larger cell sizes instead of 18650's maybe they could be used for replacements for lead acid batteries in cars. who knows
definitely do more videos on these!
In December of 2022 it was reported that a company named HiNa in partnership with Chines state-owned China Three Gorges Corporation, had started mass production of sodium-ion batteries. The first generation of HiNa batteries offer energy density figures of 125Wh/kg, which is around half that of lithium-ion batteries. However, these batteries are rated for around 4500 charge cycles, which is significantly more than typical lithium-ion batteries.
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s. sradon9782
I still think thermal is the way for grid storage:
if we outfitted just 20% of german homes with insulation and heat pumps we could store 4. 1 gigawatt hours of energy by changing the temperature by 5c, this doubles germany's current grid storage and modernizes houses with energy efficient heating solutions.
assumptions: uses germany's current grid storage of 3. 8 GWh from 2022
uses average german house volume of 300 cubic meters of air
assumes only air will be heated (in reality other objects will be which will make the number better)
assumes 100% efficiency
assumes my 5 minute maths is correct.
heat pump grid storage may be a great topic for the future btw: D
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I still think thermal is the way for grid storage:
if we outfitted just 20% of german homes with insulation and heat pumps we could store 4. 1 gigawatt hours of energy by changing the temperature by 5c, this doubles germany's current grid storage and modernizes houses with energy efficient heating solutions.
assumptions: uses germany's current grid storage of 3. 8 GWh from 2022
uses average german house volume of 300 cubic meters of air
assumes only air will be heated (in reality other objects will be which will make the number better)
assumes 100% efficiency
assumes my 5 minute maths is correct.
heat pump grid storage may be a great topic for the future btw: D
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ptorq
Atomic Absorption spectroscopy or its cousin Flame Emission spectroscopy would distinguish between sodium and lithium pretty easily. Heck, just take a small amount of the insides and stick it in a Bunsen burner flame. If you get a bright orange-yellow flame that's an indicator of sodium (lithium gives a red flame instead. You could test with a grain of salt to compare. The only reason for using fancy equipment is that the sodium emission is SO strong it can dominate anything else present, to the extent that sometimes people view flame tests through a filter that blocks out the sodium emission lines (like cobalt blue glass) to make it possible to see what else might be there.
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Atomic Absorption spectroscopy or its cousin Flame Emission spectroscopy would distinguish between sodium and lithium pretty easily. Heck, just take a small amount of the insides and stick it in a Bunsen burner flame. If you get a bright orange-yellow flame that's an indicator of sodium (lithium gives a red flame instead. You could test with a grain of salt to compare. The only reason for using fancy equipment is that the sodium emission is SO strong it can dominate anything else present, to the extent that sometimes people view flame tests through a filter that blocks out the sodium emission lines (like cobalt blue glass) to make it possible to see what else might be there.
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guywhoknows
The battery has been around a while now. The 18650 were distributed about 6 weeks ago.
From a man in china I heard they have had some issues with the first lot with low power density and something else. he thought fit wouldn't be worth buying or about a year while they iron on some of the problems.
They do make prismatic cells, and I know you can get 10ah and 40ah cells but not seen anything bigger than that.
Shame they don't have a more stable voltage. But will be handy as a replacement for domestic batteries. them AA have had their time while good is rather just use one cell or two for a long time in something
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The battery has been around a while now. The 18650 were distributed about 6 weeks ago.
From a man in china I heard they have had some issues with the first lot with low power density and something else. he thought fit wouldn't be worth buying or about a year while they iron on some of the problems.
They do make prismatic cells, and I know you can get 10ah and 40ah cells but not seen anything bigger than that.
Shame they don't have a more stable voltage. But will be handy as a replacement for domestic batteries. them AA have had their time while good is rather just use one cell or two for a long time in something
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tin2001
It's probably worth noting that Li-Ion cells used to significantly less energy dense when they were the latest technology. Common cells from 20 years ago were usually around 2Ah at most when new, while modern ones tend to be between 3 and 4 depending on the intended purpose. That improvement took only a few years once laptops switched over to lithium.
I would expect we'll see similar happen with these sodium cells as popularity increases. Physics says we can't get as dense as lithium, but they should be able to get somewhere between 2-2. 5Ah per 18650 cell within the next few years. If they catch on as being a better choice.
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It's probably worth noting that Li-Ion cells used to significantly less energy dense when they were the latest technology. Common cells from 20 years ago were usually around 2Ah at most when new, while modern ones tend to be between 3 and 4 depending on the intended purpose. That improvement took only a few years once laptops switched over to lithium.
I would expect we'll see similar happen with these sodium cells as popularity increases. Physics says we can't get as dense as lithium, but they should be able to get somewhere between 2-2. 5Ah per 18650 cell within the next few years. If they catch on as being a better choice.
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Drjtherrien
The number of charge cycles is very impressive! One big problem that sodium batteries faced was that the larger size of the sodium ion would lead to greater expansion when the ions intercalate (move into the space between carbon layers) into the graphite. This would lead to the graphite breaking and parts of it then being electrically isolated and thus no longer active in the battery. It's very cool that they found a way to avoid this. I just hope that this is not why they have higher internal resistance because that may mean that the resistance cannot be reduced without sacrificing the battery longevity.
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The number of charge cycles is very impressive! One big problem that sodium batteries faced was that the larger size of the sodium ion would lead to greater expansion when the ions intercalate (move into the space between carbon layers) into the graphite. This would lead to the graphite breaking and parts of it then being electrically isolated and thus no longer active in the battery. It's very cool that they found a way to avoid this. I just hope that this is not why they have higher internal resistance because that may mean that the resistance cannot be reduced without sacrificing the battery longevity.
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siberx4
Great video! Didn't know these were available _at all_ yet, even given the limitations you describe.
I would love to see a cycle life test on these to see if they live up to the claims; I'm both curious if Sodium-Ion does as well as it's supposed to, and also whether these particular cells meet their specifications on that front. My experience with no-name cells is generally that they perform the most below-spec in terms of cycle life even if their initial values are otherwise fairly good, and I suspect it's largely because of low quality/purity ingredients used in their manufacturing.
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Great video! Didn't know these were available _at all_ yet, even given the limitations you describe.
I would love to see a cycle life test on these to see if they live up to the claims; I'm both curious if Sodium-Ion does as well as it's supposed to, and also whether these particular cells meet their specifications on that front. My experience with no-name cells is generally that they perform the most below-spec in terms of cycle life even if their initial values are otherwise fairly good, and I suspect it's largely because of low quality/purity ingredients used in their manufacturing.
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iridescentstarling
Looking at various research papers on the subject of price forecast, it seems that sodium Ion batteries have a hard time competing on cost alone when compared to lithium based technology (LFP continuing to be its biggest competitor. Only when the lithium supply is disrupted, sodium based tech competes in some scenarios. I think that this effectively means that the geopolitical considerations and safety should probably be central in the choice for sodium iron based technology (which I personally think are very good reasons already)
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Looking at various research papers on the subject of price forecast, it seems that sodium Ion batteries have a hard time competing on cost alone when compared to lithium based technology (LFP continuing to be its biggest competitor. Only when the lithium supply is disrupted, sodium based tech competes in some scenarios. I think that this effectively means that the geopolitical considerations and safety should probably be central in the choice for sodium iron based technology (which I personally think are very good reasons already)
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ElGatoLoco698
The easiest way of converting salt to sodium metal is to heat it past the melting point of salt and separate the sodium via electrolysis. Chemical separation is not as simple and requires exotic chemicals. So it's not an easy or cheap process. So I'm not sure that sodium batteries would ever rival lithium. It's like solar panels. Silicon is readily abundant. It's everywhere. But separating it from silicon dioxide (sand) is not a cheap process. Otherwise solar panels would only cost a few bucks instead of hundreds.
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The easiest way of converting salt to sodium metal is to heat it past the melting point of salt and separate the sodium via electrolysis. Chemical separation is not as simple and requires exotic chemicals. So it's not an easy or cheap process. So I'm not sure that sodium batteries would ever rival lithium. It's like solar panels. Silicon is readily abundant. It's everywhere. But separating it from silicon dioxide (sand) is not a cheap process. Otherwise solar panels would only cost a few bucks instead of hundreds.
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murraymadness4674
The cost of batteries is the major problem with EVs and NOT their range. I've been saying for like over a decade now. that smaller vehicles with small packs and short range that can be recharged quickly is what will make replacing gas cars with electric. We had this already but at a big cost. The Sodium batteries won't recharge quickly, but it will get the price down significantly and that is a key. Perhaps there will be hybrid packs, some with fast recharge cells and the rest with Sodium.
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The cost of batteries is the major problem with EVs and NOT their range. I've been saying for like over a decade now. that smaller vehicles with small packs and short range that can be recharged quickly is what will make replacing gas cars with electric. We had this already but at a big cost. The Sodium batteries won't recharge quickly, but it will get the price down significantly and that is a key. Perhaps there will be hybrid packs, some with fast recharge cells and the rest with Sodium.
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truckywuckyuwu
Give this another 3-4 years, maybe 5. They're going to immediately be great for home energy storage or backup energy. Even some things where weight isn't a concern.
I guarantee we'll see a 25 or 30% improvement in density as they figure out better ways to manufacture these and squeeze every last drop out of them. Lithium has had years ahead of it. Given some demand though, there will be some competition and they'll get better. These definitely aren't at their maximum performance right now.
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Give this another 3-4 years, maybe 5. They're going to immediately be great for home energy storage or backup energy. Even some things where weight isn't a concern.
I guarantee we'll see a 25 or 30% improvement in density as they figure out better ways to manufacture these and squeeze every last drop out of them. Lithium has had years ahead of it. Given some demand though, there will be some competition and they'll get better. These definitely aren't at their maximum performance right now.
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greatscott
A flame test would be a pretty definitive way to tell that they actually have sodium metal in them. Sodium burns with a distinct orange-yellow flame (sodium doublet) unlike the red for lithium. So if you want to test them out, you can qualitatively compare the flame you see by burning the sodium metal cathode and burning a lump of pure sodium metal separately as a control. If you have a spectrometer or even a diffraction grating to analyse the flame, all the better, but not strictly necessary.
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A flame test would be a pretty definitive way to tell that they actually have sodium metal in them. Sodium burns with a distinct orange-yellow flame (sodium doublet) unlike the red for lithium. So if you want to test them out, you can qualitatively compare the flame you see by burning the sodium metal cathode and burning a lump of pure sodium metal separately as a control. If you have a spectrometer or even a diffraction grating to analyse the flame, all the better, but not strictly necessary.
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802Garage
I can definitely see these being huge for battery powered vehicles. We don't honestly need the insane discharge rates cars are currently able to harness for standard transportation. EVs are already fast enough for sure. The lack of massive insanely difficult to put out fires would be very nice. The longer lifespan without losing capacity would also be massive. Lower cost would of course be welcome. Plus there is room to improve in all aspects. Really hope this tech flourishes and gets cheap!
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I can definitely see these being huge for battery powered vehicles. We don't honestly need the insane discharge rates cars are currently able to harness for standard transportation. EVs are already fast enough for sure. The lack of massive insanely difficult to put out fires would be very nice. The longer lifespan without losing capacity would also be massive. Lower cost would of course be welcome. Plus there is room to improve in all aspects. Really hope this tech flourishes and gets cheap!
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joseoncrack
People have been testing these alleged sodium-ion batteries for a few months now, so that's not quite new. But I'm still not convinced these are genuinely sodium-ion.
Can anyone just tear these down and analyze the contents BMS electronics if any The only thing I've really seen so far is people puncturing them with a nail, that's pretty much it.
Just open them and analyze the contents. Check that the BMS circuit does what you think it does. Or check if there is any BMS at all.
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People have been testing these alleged sodium-ion batteries for a few months now, so that's not quite new. But I'm still not convinced these are genuinely sodium-ion.
Can anyone just tear these down and analyze the contents BMS electronics if any The only thing I've really seen so far is people puncturing them with a nail, that's pretty much it.
Just open them and analyze the contents. Check that the BMS circuit does what you think it does. Or check if there is any BMS at all.
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TecSanento
I think you made it to easy for yourself when comparing sodium battery with the regular lithium battery as the specs where more close to a lithium iron phosphate battery.
They feature much greater cycle life's - especially when you use similar/smallerbDoD values (depth of discharge) - where some lifepo4 batteries have 3-5000 cycles of lifetime.
The the result would be, that those cells are promising, but yet not a reasonable replacement for anything substantial
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I think you made it to easy for yourself when comparing sodium battery with the regular lithium battery as the specs where more close to a lithium iron phosphate battery.
They feature much greater cycle life's - especially when you use similar/smallerbDoD values (depth of discharge) - where some lifepo4 batteries have 3-5000 cycles of lifetime.
The the result would be, that those cells are promising, but yet not a reasonable replacement for anything substantial
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novantha1
It'd be cool to see people borrow some ideas from software engineering; in servers it's common to use RAID setups to improve the reliability of storage by overlapping the storage of several hard drives, and also improving performance metrics in some cases, though it occurs to me that ECC memory may be more relevant.
I think one could, in a very similar way, use an extra sodium ion battery as a parity battery per pack to maintain a consistent power output curve.
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It'd be cool to see people borrow some ideas from software engineering; in servers it's common to use RAID setups to improve the reliability of storage by overlapping the storage of several hard drives, and also improving performance metrics in some cases, though it occurs to me that ECC memory may be more relevant.
I think one could, in a very similar way, use an extra sodium ion battery as a parity battery per pack to maintain a consistent power output curve.
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TT-it9gg
It's not news.
SHARP had a research center in west coast. They owned many of the salt related patents.
As time goes by, many of them will soon be expired.
Those patents went to FOXCONN after merging SHARP.
There are many Na battery out there long ago. But, the same issues exist from day first.
Li is much smaller than Na. There is no way to surpress Li by Na in high density applications.
Ti is about the same as Na.
2 cents
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It's not news.
SHARP had a research center in west coast. They owned many of the salt related patents.
As time goes by, many of them will soon be expired.
Those patents went to FOXCONN after merging SHARP.
There are many Na battery out there long ago. But, the same issues exist from day first.
Li is much smaller than Na. There is no way to surpress Li by Na in high density applications.
Ti is about the same as Na.
2 cents
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