You Shouldn't Overthink Ryzen 9 7950X3D
video description
Zen 3/4 does not fetch any data from the other CCD's L3. Whenever a cache miss happens that CCD requests data directly from the DRAM. L3 is only shared within a single CCD. This has been tested by many people and confirmed by AMD. Parking cores isn't different from setting core scheduling priority, which windows has done already for decades to schedule dual CCD Ryzen and later Intel 12th/13th gen CPUs properly. Parking cores just allows you to set this priority manually when you believe Windows does the wrong thing (apparently it can't always be right because this is no way for a OS to know if a running app is cache sensitive or frequency sensitive in real time). And people have been using 3rd party tools to do so for 12/13th gen Intel for quite a long time because windows is dumb as always.
Date: 2023-03-04
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Comments and reviews: 14
Ata
you don't need to buy a 16 core cpu anyways. well, AMD most likely deliberately delayed the 8 core version to get gamers to buy the 16 core version. Also, I love Wendell, but I will say i'm annoyed by him criticizing people for not wanting to wait 2 weeks for the 7800x3d when it's more than 4 weeks people will have to wait. It really makes him sound like an AMD apologist. Also, like back in the days of Zen 1. Games didn't take advantage of more than the 8 threads of intel i7, but that didn't stop virtually every reviewer from still recommending AMD zen CPUs and many of us buying them. A lot of the hope and consumer mindset of buying high end CPUs is future proofing and hoping that even if games aren't taking advantage of more than 4 hyperthreaded cores now, we're going to buy more cores so that in the future when games do take advantage of more cores, we'll be good. And there is a lot of uncertainty if that's feasible with core parking. If it's software solutions we need to rely on, and we're waiting on game developers to create software solutions for their games, well PC gamers don't have good history of games being well optimized for PC especially if it's only for CPUs that we shouldn't really be using for gaming as the 7800x3d will be the better choice.
Another thing I didn't like about the 7950x3d is i think it is a smaller area where it excels at. At least with most reviewers, it seems like the software that will excel with Intel vs those that will excel with AMD is pretty evenly split. But the13900k is a 550 CPU that excels in every piece of software that is best optimized for Intel. The 7950x3d is a 700 CPU and it excels if the software is better optimized for AMD AND takes advantage of more cache more than fast cores. Otherwise the 7950x is the better option. 700 for a CPU that performs worse than a 600 CPU by the same brand in a lot of programs including some games; and in the programs that it will outperform the 7950x; it will likely perform very closely to the 7800x3d, a 450 CPU. Do we even know if the 7950x3d will outperform both the 7950x and the 7800x3d in anything? Or is it very likely that people are paying 700 for a CPU that is a jack of all trades and master of nothing? Really AMD created a lot of this mess by intentionally obscuring how the 3 7000 series x3d CPUs will perform.
Finally, new software is scary. I don't know how annoying xbox game bar is.
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you don't need to buy a 16 core cpu anyways. well, AMD most likely deliberately delayed the 8 core version to get gamers to buy the 16 core version. Also, I love Wendell, but I will say i'm annoyed by him criticizing people for not wanting to wait 2 weeks for the 7800x3d when it's more than 4 weeks people will have to wait. It really makes him sound like an AMD apologist. Also, like back in the days of Zen 1. Games didn't take advantage of more than the 8 threads of intel i7, but that didn't stop virtually every reviewer from still recommending AMD zen CPUs and many of us buying them. A lot of the hope and consumer mindset of buying high end CPUs is future proofing and hoping that even if games aren't taking advantage of more than 4 hyperthreaded cores now, we're going to buy more cores so that in the future when games do take advantage of more cores, we'll be good. And there is a lot of uncertainty if that's feasible with core parking. If it's software solutions we need to rely on, and we're waiting on game developers to create software solutions for their games, well PC gamers don't have good history of games being well optimized for PC especially if it's only for CPUs that we shouldn't really be using for gaming as the 7800x3d will be the better choice.
Another thing I didn't like about the 7950x3d is i think it is a smaller area where it excels at. At least with most reviewers, it seems like the software that will excel with Intel vs those that will excel with AMD is pretty evenly split. But the13900k is a 550 CPU that excels in every piece of software that is best optimized for Intel. The 7950x3d is a 700 CPU and it excels if the software is better optimized for AMD AND takes advantage of more cache more than fast cores. Otherwise the 7950x is the better option. 700 for a CPU that performs worse than a 600 CPU by the same brand in a lot of programs including some games; and in the programs that it will outperform the 7950x; it will likely perform very closely to the 7800x3d, a 450 CPU. Do we even know if the 7950x3d will outperform both the 7950x and the 7800x3d in anything? Or is it very likely that people are paying 700 for a CPU that is a jack of all trades and master of nothing? Really AMD created a lot of this mess by intentionally obscuring how the 3 7000 series x3d CPUs will perform.
Finally, new software is scary. I don't know how annoying xbox game bar is.
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SirCrest
I play Factorio on 4x speed so 240ups is useful for me :)
I guess my area of disappointment is that we're already using game bar to essentially tell where something should run, but instead of telling it where to run it's telling which cores need to go to sleep in the hopes that the Windows scheduler doesn't screw things up. It sounds like it hasn't had the updates to just behave and keep games on CCD0. Why park the cores if the scheduler would just know to not randomly migrate threads from one application. This appears to be an issue already on 7950x where games that don't benefit from 16cores will still be balanced between chiplets and disabling a CCD results in much better 0.1%.
Which makes me think: A) the scheduler still isn't where it needs to be and this is AMD's 90% viable solution. And/or B) 7950x could also benefit from this but AMD said multiple times there's no problems with the windows scheduler on dual CCD Ryzens. But as we're seeing in this discussion the problem isn't just V-Cache vs HF it's about migrating games between chiplets and getting a latency penalty. Which sounds like Dual CCD chips from 3000, 5000, and 7000 should have had this already.
Both dies having V-Cache being a bad idea makes sense if we're also trying to avoid chip to chip latency. I'm with AMD on that. This just feels like a very inelegant solution. I certainly hope MS improves things natively.
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I play Factorio on 4x speed so 240ups is useful for me :)
I guess my area of disappointment is that we're already using game bar to essentially tell where something should run, but instead of telling it where to run it's telling which cores need to go to sleep in the hopes that the Windows scheduler doesn't screw things up. It sounds like it hasn't had the updates to just behave and keep games on CCD0. Why park the cores if the scheduler would just know to not randomly migrate threads from one application. This appears to be an issue already on 7950x where games that don't benefit from 16cores will still be balanced between chiplets and disabling a CCD results in much better 0.1%.
Which makes me think: A) the scheduler still isn't where it needs to be and this is AMD's 90% viable solution. And/or B) 7950x could also benefit from this but AMD said multiple times there's no problems with the windows scheduler on dual CCD Ryzens. But as we're seeing in this discussion the problem isn't just V-Cache vs HF it's about migrating games between chiplets and getting a latency penalty. Which sounds like Dual CCD chips from 3000, 5000, and 7000 should have had this already.
Both dies having V-Cache being a bad idea makes sense if we're also trying to avoid chip to chip latency. I'm with AMD on that. This just feels like a very inelegant solution. I certainly hope MS improves things natively.
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Jonathan
I'm glad yall are having this conversation its really interesting to see people that have never had to know how the kernel or internals of the cpu work getting a splash of cold water.
This has been fascinating release. I instantly saw how these parts should work because I worked on getting Affinity Scheduling working on Bulldozer for Crays Blue Waters before the Linux Kernel fully integrated AMDs threading issues.
We had to provide this for the scientists needed to make sure that the shared Floating Point Unit could only get scheduled by one of the threads and keep all INT based operations on the other thread.
This is that all over again, the thing I don't like about the Parking and balanced is if I want to contain all my streaming apps on the core away from the game so they don't context switch. On AMD's post I was wishing that there was an interface to hint or recreate process lasso in Ryzen Master.
However this requires a lot of bench-marking and knowing the behaviors of each application but that would be outside the realms of what most are willing to do.
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I'm glad yall are having this conversation its really interesting to see people that have never had to know how the kernel or internals of the cpu work getting a splash of cold water.
This has been fascinating release. I instantly saw how these parts should work because I worked on getting Affinity Scheduling working on Bulldozer for Crays Blue Waters before the Linux Kernel fully integrated AMDs threading issues.
We had to provide this for the scientists needed to make sure that the shared Floating Point Unit could only get scheduled by one of the threads and keep all INT based operations on the other thread.
This is that all over again, the thing I don't like about the Parking and balanced is if I want to contain all my streaming apps on the core away from the game so they don't context switch. On AMD's post I was wishing that there was an interface to hint or recreate process lasso in Ryzen Master.
However this requires a lot of bench-marking and knowing the behaviors of each application but that would be outside the realms of what most are willing to do.
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aggies11
I think a lot of confusion stems from the fact that people assume the windows scheduler is doing a lot more then it is. They imagine it's working much like how a human would logically assign cores/ccx on a asymetric vcache design, which we can do very straightforward, while in reality the scheduler is much more dumb . Don't get me wrong, a process scheduler is a non trivial piece of engineering but it's easy to naively assume that it does more then it can. With that in mind, you can see that AMDs current strategy is one that is designed to work with this dumb scheduler in mind, and work around/within those limitations. A thread director situation would be more preferable (from a purely idealogical, not practical standpoint), but even intel's thread director and microsoft's concessions to the scheduler, still don't lead to a 100% ideal handling of Pcore/Ecore systems. So from a what would work for the majority of cases in a set it and forget it sense, this is a pretty solid first attempt that accomplishes the majority of what most systems would need.
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I think a lot of confusion stems from the fact that people assume the windows scheduler is doing a lot more then it is. They imagine it's working much like how a human would logically assign cores/ccx on a asymetric vcache design, which we can do very straightforward, while in reality the scheduler is much more dumb . Don't get me wrong, a process scheduler is a non trivial piece of engineering but it's easy to naively assume that it does more then it can. With that in mind, you can see that AMDs current strategy is one that is designed to work with this dumb scheduler in mind, and work around/within those limitations. A thread director situation would be more preferable (from a purely idealogical, not practical standpoint), but even intel's thread director and microsoft's concessions to the scheduler, still don't lead to a 100% ideal handling of Pcore/Ecore systems. So from a what would work for the majority of cases in a set it and forget it sense, this is a pretty solid first attempt that accomplishes the majority of what most systems would need.
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Saricubra
The lack of AVX512 thing has nothing to do with Thread Director. It's a problem with thermals or perfomance per watt for the majority of consumer applications, Intel fused it off because of that, also, the e-cores don't have the die space for powerful floating point units to handle AVX512 instructions.
AMD has more headroom because they have TSMC's 5nm process, but still temperatures climb up a lot with those instructions.
My i7-12700K is a 2021 batch with AVX512, it should help for console emulators but basically it doesn't offer a perfomance uplift. When running Switch emulation as an example, i actually lose perfomance when the e-cores are turned off and AVX512 is on, the temperature of the CPU also increases, same for power consumption.
It's more efficient adding more CPU cores to a chip and increasing IPC for general compute than AVX512 that the majority of software will not use. I tried using AVX512 to accelerate AI audio workloads and it's way worse than stock perfomance too.
I think Linus Torvalds warned Intel about this.
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The lack of AVX512 thing has nothing to do with Thread Director. It's a problem with thermals or perfomance per watt for the majority of consumer applications, Intel fused it off because of that, also, the e-cores don't have the die space for powerful floating point units to handle AVX512 instructions.
AMD has more headroom because they have TSMC's 5nm process, but still temperatures climb up a lot with those instructions.
My i7-12700K is a 2021 batch with AVX512, it should help for console emulators but basically it doesn't offer a perfomance uplift. When running Switch emulation as an example, i actually lose perfomance when the e-cores are turned off and AVX512 is on, the temperature of the CPU also increases, same for power consumption.
It's more efficient adding more CPU cores to a chip and increasing IPC for general compute than AVX512 that the majority of software will not use. I tried using AVX512 to accelerate AI audio workloads and it's way worse than stock perfomance too.
I think Linus Torvalds warned Intel about this.
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UnrealVideoDuke
Must have been nice to sit down to talk about something instead of having a 3rd person boasting about his love life.
When I bought an AMD Athlon II X4 630 Quad-core I noticed a single core process jump around the CPU from one core to another. Is this even efficient?
Most newer programs take advantage of multi core processes but some may demand more resource than others when running at the same time. Does having more cores make a CPU more efficient or is it going to take more resource for it to manage the other cores? Having an extra process to count how much FPS or to see how something is performing will take up some resources. Do we really need AVX512?
MS always had telemetry as soon as you go online. Who actually said yes to Cortana? Why does BSOD still exist? Can't MS fix their OS? Or stop pushing their next flagship OS?
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Must have been nice to sit down to talk about something instead of having a 3rd person boasting about his love life.
When I bought an AMD Athlon II X4 630 Quad-core I noticed a single core process jump around the CPU from one core to another. Is this even efficient?
Most newer programs take advantage of multi core processes but some may demand more resource than others when running at the same time. Does having more cores make a CPU more efficient or is it going to take more resource for it to manage the other cores? Having an extra process to count how much FPS or to see how something is performing will take up some resources. Do we really need AVX512?
MS always had telemetry as soon as you go online. Who actually said yes to Cortana? Why does BSOD still exist? Can't MS fix their OS? Or stop pushing their next flagship OS?
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Dillon
I want it to know which ccd gets the absolute most fps and select that for gaming and that's all it does, everything else is on the other ccd.
whether it makes me a nitpicky idiot or not if my 700 16 core can't be bothered to use the other 8 cores and I loose a single fps I am pissed off. so what if it's the best. it could still be better. I'm not an ln2 OCer but I still like getting the most out of my system and see how I'm doing.
I don't like having one ccd parked because all 16 aren't needed . put the bs workload on the ccd that isn't gaming and leave my fps alone.
to be clear the game only running on one ccd is fine. but something like discord and obs shouldn't even look at the gaming ccd without getting it's ass beat.
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I want it to know which ccd gets the absolute most fps and select that for gaming and that's all it does, everything else is on the other ccd.
whether it makes me a nitpicky idiot or not if my 700 16 core can't be bothered to use the other 8 cores and I loose a single fps I am pissed off. so what if it's the best. it could still be better. I'm not an ln2 OCer but I still like getting the most out of my system and see how I'm doing.
I don't like having one ccd parked because all 16 aren't needed . put the bs workload on the ccd that isn't gaming and leave my fps alone.
to be clear the game only running on one ccd is fine. but something like discord and obs shouldn't even look at the gaming ccd without getting it's ass beat.
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jjdawg
22:45 That's a big one and it's not only old games. It's all kinds of productivity software like CAD, Virtual machines, video encoding etc that could benefit but may never get updates for every new heterogeneous Frankenstein architecture. You have to hope the OS will get enough hooks so that you can go back to manually set priorities, affinities etc.....or just get the 7950x which outdoes the 7950x3d in multi-thread anyway because of x3d power limitations. These things are turkeys. A complete waste of cores for gamers and under-powered for productivity users(unless you want to get your hands dirty)
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22:45 That's a big one and it's not only old games. It's all kinds of productivity software like CAD, Virtual machines, video encoding etc that could benefit but may never get updates for every new heterogeneous Frankenstein architecture. You have to hope the OS will get enough hooks so that you can go back to manually set priorities, affinities etc.....or just get the 7950x which outdoes the 7950x3d in multi-thread anyway because of x3d power limitations. These things are turkeys. A complete waste of cores for gamers and under-powered for productivity users(unless you want to get your hands dirty)
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ssj2rich
9:49 that question really annoyed me, as a gamer, i'd buy a 8 core cpu, or even a 6 core cpu any day of the week, your question should be directed toward amd and intel , why is amd releasing the 7800 with 5ghz and not 5.7 like the 7950 ? why is it releasing 2 months later ? why does it have 96mb l3 ?
i want the best gaming cpu, i'm being forced to buy 7950x3d , i dont need 16 cores, but to get 8cores at 5.7ghz with 128mb cache, i have to pay for 16 cores for some reason (and yes i know there is a ghz penelty on the ccd with cache, thats not the point of my argument so dont attached to that)
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9:49 that question really annoyed me, as a gamer, i'd buy a 8 core cpu, or even a 6 core cpu any day of the week, your question should be directed toward amd and intel , why is amd releasing the 7800 with 5ghz and not 5.7 like the 7950 ? why is it releasing 2 months later ? why does it have 96mb l3 ?
i want the best gaming cpu, i'm being forced to buy 7950x3d , i dont need 16 cores, but to get 8cores at 5.7ghz with 128mb cache, i have to pay for 16 cores for some reason (and yes i know there is a ghz penelty on the ccd with cache, thats not the point of my argument so dont attached to that)
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TeddyOfLove
If you don't like this processor wait for 7800x3d, it will be very close in perfomance. But if you want best perfomance and you are building high end system that already costs over 3-4k then just pay this extra 200 which is nothing for you and get that extra higher clocks and in the future hopefully 2nd ccd can be used for other processes to give full 1st CCD for games. Anyway if you are hard capped on money for your build should not even be looking at this CPU, if not then pay these 200extra and get slight edge over 7800x3d.
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If you don't like this processor wait for 7800x3d, it will be very close in perfomance. But if you want best perfomance and you are building high end system that already costs over 3-4k then just pay this extra 200 which is nothing for you and get that extra higher clocks and in the future hopefully 2nd ccd can be used for other processes to give full 1st CCD for games. Anyway if you are hard capped on money for your build should not even be looking at this CPU, if not then pay these 200extra and get slight edge over 7800x3d.
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mleise
Anecdote from me: I used core parking on an unlikely candidate, the i5-9400F, to put 2 cores mostly to sleep. That way the boost clock goes from 3.9 GHz up to 4.0. All you need is a separate power plan in Windows for which QuickCPU is a great tool. Then you can quickly switch between profiles to maximize either single-core performance or multi-threading. That's why I also think the XBox Game Bar thing wont really be a requirement for long until pro users find other ways to trigger the core parking that more suit their use cases.
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Anecdote from me: I used core parking on an unlikely candidate, the i5-9400F, to put 2 cores mostly to sleep. That way the boost clock goes from 3.9 GHz up to 4.0. All you need is a separate power plan in Windows for which QuickCPU is a great tool. Then you can quickly switch between profiles to maximize either single-core performance or multi-threading. That's why I also think the XBox Game Bar thing wont really be a requirement for long until pro users find other ways to trigger the core parking that more suit their use cases.
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ChinchillaBONK
Strategy games benefit from more threads and processor speeds though.
I have not seen a SINGLE content creator talk about this and all their games are using FPS (and FPS (frames per second) dependant games like FPS(first person shooters) games) as a measuring stick.
There are still us strategy gamers who want to know what is good for our games.
I can only rely on forums for such advice sadly.
But thanks for your insight with Factorio as an example Wendell
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Strategy games benefit from more threads and processor speeds though.
I have not seen a SINGLE content creator talk about this and all their games are using FPS (and FPS (frames per second) dependant games like FPS(first person shooters) games) as a measuring stick.
There are still us strategy gamers who want to know what is good for our games.
I can only rely on forums for such advice sadly.
But thanks for your insight with Factorio as an example Wendell
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Dan
It is a reality not overthinking. Asymmetrical X3D is overpriced and badly designed. Amd relies on double software layers on whitelisting to just make it 'work'. Chipset + VBS Gamebar. Big latency and dependency on hardcoding. Im just disappointed YT testers only follow best case review guide from Amd. We should see more cross-CCD load before we call 7950X3D the all in one best gaming chip today. Throw an imperfect load on 7950X3D and 13900K/13700K, and Amd gets embarrased.
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It is a reality not overthinking. Asymmetrical X3D is overpriced and badly designed. Amd relies on double software layers on whitelisting to just make it 'work'. Chipset + VBS Gamebar. Big latency and dependency on hardcoding. Im just disappointed YT testers only follow best case review guide from Amd. We should see more cross-CCD load before we call 7950X3D the all in one best gaming chip today. Throw an imperfect load on 7950X3D and 13900K/13700K, and Amd gets embarrased.
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Joel
this video: gordon misspeak damage control
what caused it: Gordon sounding like the red fanboi he is known to be....
result: gordon still damaged credibility and now seen and scrambling and justifying
gordon, ya been around long enough to know that how this went down and resulting backlash you felt was TOTALLY on you, and you should have had Wedell explain it from the get go for proper info dispersal and respect to your followers.
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this video: gordon misspeak damage control
what caused it: Gordon sounding like the red fanboi he is known to be....
result: gordon still damaged credibility and now seen and scrambling and justifying
gordon, ya been around long enough to know that how this went down and resulting backlash you felt was TOTALLY on you, and you should have had Wedell explain it from the get go for proper info dispersal and respect to your followers.
reply
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