How TINY Can I go The BEST Power Board is here!
video description
Also consider that more caps in parallel will decrease ESR, which can greatly help reduce noise on a switching regulator.
Lastly, keeping components on the same side of the PCB can often minimize the size of current loops, thus minimizing unwanted inductance and noise.
I'm really curious to see the comparison of EMI/EMC on these boards. I've designed a few boards with switching regulators, but have only recently started paying more attention to EMI/EMC.
Date: 2024-01-30
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Comments and reviews: 19
OnezOgirdor
Hey Scott, cool Project, but I must admit that you lost me quite a bit around the 6 minute mark with the design of the first pcb.
My very limited understanding of pcb design mostly stems from your videos as for example the one where you designed a remote yourself or building a charge IC. For a couple years I was dabbling into that whole topic on and of to create my own version of your Handheld Project, to this day with nothing to show but plans and a few parts.
Am I assuming right, that the Red on Black View that is shown resembles all copperlayers ontop of each other And could you elaborate in a maybe a bit simpler way, why those big coppertraces are needed around the coil and the Powerrails
After repeating that part 5: 50 to 6: 30 a couple times more, I slowly get it, but it still is only a vague hint of understanding, so if you could shed some more light on it or recommend somewhere I could find the answers I am looking for, I would be very grateful!
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Hey Scott, cool Project, but I must admit that you lost me quite a bit around the 6 minute mark with the design of the first pcb.
My very limited understanding of pcb design mostly stems from your videos as for example the one where you designed a remote yourself or building a charge IC. For a couple years I was dabbling into that whole topic on and of to create my own version of your Handheld Project, to this day with nothing to show but plans and a few parts.
Am I assuming right, that the Red on Black View that is shown resembles all copperlayers ontop of each other And could you elaborate in a maybe a bit simpler way, why those big coppertraces are needed around the coil and the Powerrails
After repeating that part 5: 50 to 6: 30 a couple times more, I slowly get it, but it still is only a vague hint of understanding, so if you could shed some more light on it or recommend somewhere I could find the answers I am looking for, I would be very grateful!
reply
sponkii
Great video
A few suggestions that could improve performance, and keed all components on one side.
Move all important text to bottom side.
Get rid of designators and component outlines.
Then you will have more space for decoupling capacitors.
Not all capacitors are created equal, especially not MLCC class 2. So you may want to look into the delta C as function of delta V. This depends on package size, dielectric and vendor.
If only area is important, the use one 1206 instead of two 0603, as you can find taller 1206, which is more volume for capacitance.
Perhaps a 1206 polymer tantalum.
Move input and outputs to the eges of the design, perhaps even castellated holes.
Share input and output ground.
Resistors could be 0402.
reply
Great video
A few suggestions that could improve performance, and keed all components on one side.
Move all important text to bottom side.
Get rid of designators and component outlines.
Then you will have more space for decoupling capacitors.
Not all capacitors are created equal, especially not MLCC class 2. So you may want to look into the delta C as function of delta V. This depends on package size, dielectric and vendor.
If only area is important, the use one 1206 instead of two 0603, as you can find taller 1206, which is more volume for capacitance.
Perhaps a 1206 polymer tantalum.
Move input and outputs to the eges of the design, perhaps even castellated holes.
Share input and output ground.
Resistors could be 0402.
reply
Nik930714
Given the price and lack of a proper speck of the aliexpress board, i'm 100% sure they were not tested for EMC compliance at all. EMC labs are expensive and you'd have to sell way to many of those cheap boards in order to break even.
Its funny how in the hobby DC-DC convertors they tend to use ancient ICs and designs (mostly because of costs) and when a board is made with a newer part from 2010 its a giant leap forward, but its still a part from 2010. TI have better DC-DC convertors from the last couple of years, but they tend to cost a bit more.
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Given the price and lack of a proper speck of the aliexpress board, i'm 100% sure they were not tested for EMC compliance at all. EMC labs are expensive and you'd have to sell way to many of those cheap boards in order to break even.
Its funny how in the hobby DC-DC convertors they tend to use ancient ICs and designs (mostly because of costs) and when a board is made with a newer part from 2010 its a giant leap forward, but its still a part from 2010. TI have better DC-DC convertors from the last couple of years, but they tend to cost a bit more.
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user-lo8gq3pr6e
It can surely be made even smaller - the in/out pads are huge in the final design and they take space on both sides. Change them to the single-sided smaller soldering spots. Same about the voltage selection jumper: you can reduce number its pins from 3 to 2 by making it short a resistor in series (or not short for 5V. Or you can eliminate it completely by just soldering different resistors depending on desired board output voltage. And you can put more capacitors on the back side to bring the noise back to acceptable level.
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It can surely be made even smaller - the in/out pads are huge in the final design and they take space on both sides. Change them to the single-sided smaller soldering spots. Same about the voltage selection jumper: you can reduce number its pins from 3 to 2 by making it short a resistor in series (or not short for 5V. Or you can eliminate it completely by just soldering different resistors depending on desired board output voltage. And you can put more capacitors on the back side to bring the noise back to acceptable level.
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hufca
Experienced engineer here. Looking at your PCB design i noticed that you make so called via-stitching equally spaced, which is a bad habit. Especially in fast switching circuits. That's because those places often become nodes of the high frequency standing waves, which in result amplifies the noise, energy loses, and destroys the electromagnetic compatibility of your circuit.
This is quite unintuitive, but randomly placing vias (which for an untrained eye may seem unprofessional and ugly) in fact makes your circuit better!
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Experienced engineer here. Looking at your PCB design i noticed that you make so called via-stitching equally spaced, which is a bad habit. Especially in fast switching circuits. That's because those places often become nodes of the high frequency standing waves, which in result amplifies the noise, energy loses, and destroys the electromagnetic compatibility of your circuit.
This is quite unintuitive, but randomly placing vias (which for an untrained eye may seem unprofessional and ugly) in fact makes your circuit better!
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fishyerik
Nice, I thing I don't get, if your already chosen to hand solder capacitors on the back side, why don't just add more and bigger capacitors there
I guess there are thermal issues if those things operate at high output for a long time, just over 75% efficiency at 5V 2A output means over 3 watts of heat, that seems like a lot to me, even for the AliExpress version, of it's built into something, especially if it shares plastic case with other heat sources, like a battery that's discharging and possibly the load.
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Nice, I thing I don't get, if your already chosen to hand solder capacitors on the back side, why don't just add more and bigger capacitors there
I guess there are thermal issues if those things operate at high output for a long time, just over 75% efficiency at 5V 2A output means over 3 watts of heat, that seems like a lot to me, even for the AliExpress version, of it's built into something, especially if it shares plastic case with other heat sources, like a battery that's discharging and possibly the load.
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blakeshafferfilms
I didn’t get a good look at your layout, but adding some additional ground layers in the middle of your board can help with reducing output ripple. It is also helpful to isolate the feedback node by ensuring the feedback trace is thin and doesn’t go anywhere near the switching node. Same thing with the ground reference for the feedback divider, have it be a trace that goes straight to the return of the chip and ensure the power paths are separate if that makes sense. Great video! Thanks for sharing!
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I didn’t get a good look at your layout, but adding some additional ground layers in the middle of your board can help with reducing output ripple. It is also helpful to isolate the feedback node by ensuring the feedback trace is thin and doesn’t go anywhere near the switching node. Same thing with the ground reference for the feedback divider, have it be a trace that goes straight to the return of the chip and ensure the power paths are separate if that makes sense. Great video! Thanks for sharing!
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MSP757
When I searched for good dc-dc converter some time ago if found one module, which I thought is perfect one.
But later during testing I found that it has strange low voltage mode. Like if your battery is already discharged, its voltage can drop significantly during dc-dc start which pushes IC to open mosfet more and more until it completely shortened.
Unfortunately such behavior maked it totally unusable with simple batteries.
So, I'm wondering if this TI IC has the same issue
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When I searched for good dc-dc converter some time ago if found one module, which I thought is perfect one.
But later during testing I found that it has strange low voltage mode. Like if your battery is already discharged, its voltage can drop significantly during dc-dc start which pushes IC to open mosfet more and more until it completely shortened.
Unfortunately such behavior maked it totally unusable with simple batteries.
So, I'm wondering if this TI IC has the same issue
reply
panavpasricha
Please make a video on rda5991ic it is a multipurpose ic with features like it integrates 802. 11b/g/n MAC, PHY, 2. 4Ghz radio, PowerAmplifier and
antenna switch into one chip and is optimized for mobile applications. WLAN, Bluetooth and FM can work simultaneously and independently, with low power consumption levels target to battery powered devices. I have one lying around but couln't find its pinout or schematic. Please help.
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Please make a video on rda5991ic it is a multipurpose ic with features like it integrates 802. 11b/g/n MAC, PHY, 2. 4Ghz radio, PowerAmplifier and
antenna switch into one chip and is optimized for mobile applications. WLAN, Bluetooth and FM can work simultaneously and independently, with low power consumption levels target to battery powered devices. I have one lying around but couln't find its pinout or schematic. Please help.
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dr. robertnick9599
Now that you got a taste of making your own boards, you are probably going to make more of them to cut down on wiring when connecting different modules.
You could make an even smaller Power board, which you can just plug into these, with just 3 connections and an angled pin header for a vertical connection to your custom PCB.
And try using flux. It is what seperates soldering beginners from pros.
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Now that you got a taste of making your own boards, you are probably going to make more of them to cut down on wiring when connecting different modules.
You could make an even smaller Power board, which you can just plug into these, with just 3 connections and an angled pin header for a vertical connection to your custom PCB.
And try using flux. It is what seperates soldering beginners from pros.
reply
68CHUCKLES
How about instead: Keep the board the same size, increase the part size with higher performance parts, and how much more power you can get for same size. Also, I don't Always look at smaller as better i. e. don't larger parts have better thermal dissipation. Assuming one were going to use it with a LiPo battery anyway, sometimes having it the same size as the battery might be a good place to mount it!
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How about instead: Keep the board the same size, increase the part size with higher performance parts, and how much more power you can get for same size. Also, I don't Always look at smaller as better i. e. don't larger parts have better thermal dissipation. Assuming one were going to use it with a LiPo battery anyway, sometimes having it the same size as the battery might be a good place to mount it!
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piconano
If selected for 3. 3V buck, how does it deal with the cell voltage dropping bellow 3. 35V The cell still has about 20% power left, but the power will be unusable.
In order to use the full power of a single cell, one needs a buck/boost converter. Specially if the cell is a LiFePO4.
A better part with even lower Iq of 8uA is the TPS631010. It's a buck/boost with one inductor. Amazing really.
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If selected for 3. 3V buck, how does it deal with the cell voltage dropping bellow 3. 35V The cell still has about 20% power left, but the power will be unusable.
In order to use the full power of a single cell, one needs a buck/boost converter. Specially if the cell is a LiFePO4.
A better part with even lower Iq of 8uA is the TPS631010. It's a buck/boost with one inductor. Amazing really.
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fariszainuddin9842
I love this video and the product featured. I've been curious about this booster board. May I ask how long can it provide stable voltage from li-on battery Even if the voltage decreases from 3. 7 and below dose it still outputs stable 5v And also if I connect the it to the output of TP4056 will it work well Or it just works when only directly connected to the battery
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I love this video and the product featured. I've been curious about this booster board. May I ask how long can it provide stable voltage from li-on battery Even if the voltage decreases from 3. 7 and below dose it still outputs stable 5v And also if I connect the it to the output of TP4056 will it work well Or it just works when only directly connected to the battery
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danielegger6460
Haha, boards from AliExpress and EMC testing, that was a good joke. If they're any good, than by coincidence, not by design. I'd have rather put the resistors on the back side, also it's an rather odd choice (if the schematics and what is placed on the board are in sync) to use the same 22nF value for both, I'd either gone for higher or at least different values.
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Haha, boards from AliExpress and EMC testing, that was a good joke. If they're any good, than by coincidence, not by design. I'd have rather put the resistors on the back side, also it's an rather odd choice (if the schematics and what is placed on the board are in sync) to use the same 22nF value for both, I'd either gone for higher or at least different values.
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bskull3232
Check out FTC322520S1R5MBCA, this inductor is electrically identical with the Wurth you selected, at half the footprint size. The FTC family is widely used (3225 470nH, 3225 680nH, 2520 1. 0uH, 2520 1. 5uH) for on-stick DDR5 VDD/VDDQ generation. Never tested other values such as the 3225 1. 5uH I recommended, but I have no reason to believe they don't work.
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Check out FTC322520S1R5MBCA, this inductor is electrically identical with the Wurth you selected, at half the footprint size. The FTC family is widely used (3225 470nH, 3225 680nH, 2520 1. 0uH, 2520 1. 5uH) for on-stick DDR5 VDD/VDDQ generation. Never tested other values such as the 3225 1. 5uH I recommended, but I have no reason to believe they don't work.
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BartoszWawrzacz
Cute, BUT!
Check out the TI's power modules, which have the inductor integrated. They are spectacular! Tiny, very efficient and absolutely great EMC-wise, as the noisiest switched node doesn't even leave the module.
For your application, TPSM83100 looks like a great solution and could easily get you to 1/2 size of your final board.
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Cute, BUT!
Check out the TI's power modules, which have the inductor integrated. They are spectacular! Tiny, very efficient and absolutely great EMC-wise, as the noisiest switched node doesn't even leave the module.
For your application, TPSM83100 looks like a great solution and could easily get you to 1/2 size of your final board.
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brianjensen2532
This video reminded me that in 2014 I bought an Accurite Temperature/Humidity monitor. I stuck a brand new Energizer battery in it. This device is still being used 10 years later with the original battery in it. The device is always on and always displays the temperature and humidity and cannot be turned off unless you remove the battery.
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This video reminded me that in 2014 I bought an Accurite Temperature/Humidity monitor. I stuck a brand new Energizer battery in it. This device is still being used 10 years later with the original battery in it. The device is always on and always displays the temperature and humidity and cannot be turned off unless you remove the battery.
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sri198904
nice video. TPS6380x or MP1605 could be even better solution with 11 uA for 2 A output current. MP28200/10 (500 nA) for upto 1 A. TPS62743/431 (360 nA) for 300- 400 mA output currents. Most applications this should enough. I like MP28200 has least component count for 3. 3 V output applications. May be you could have used 0603 components
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nice video. TPS6380x or MP1605 could be even better solution with 11 uA for 2 A output current. MP28200/10 (500 nA) for upto 1 A. TPS62743/431 (360 nA) for 300- 400 mA output currents. Most applications this should enough. I like MP28200 has least component count for 3. 3 V output applications. May be you could have used 0603 components
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nil3010
Pcb designing for switching converter is actually pretty intense and interesting
The way you place your current loops become very important
I recently did first attempt at pcb designing and have it fabricated
( Not good but usable)
Useing kicad
I highly recommend Phil's lab vids if anyone wants to know more about it
reply
Pcb designing for switching converter is actually pretty intense and interesting
The way you place your current loops become very important
I recently did first attempt at pcb designing and have it fabricated
( Not good but usable)
Useing kicad
I highly recommend Phil's lab vids if anyone wants to know more about it
reply
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