Personal Identity: Crash Course Philosophy #19
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Date: 2022-04-04
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Comments and reviews: 10
Adam
The philosophy of identity is very interesting when applied to the Sci-Fi book and series -Altered Carbon-. In the show, the consciousness of a person can be stored on a highly advanced piece of alien technology called a -stack-. A person can switch bodies and retain their memories by transplanting their stack to another body. Even in this fictional universe, I would still be skeptical of my retention of self even though my memories or maybe some aspect of my consciousness would be transplanted because the brain is not part of this transference, only this chip, the stack.
To anyone who's seen the show or understands the concept, what do you think? For instance, there's lots of talk in the transhumanist sphere that people will be able to upload all their mind data to the cloud or some other digital medium to continue living in another realm, but I find that to be more of a copy of consciousness rather than a transference because you could upload that data while remaining in your own body. But something like a stack that is connected to the body by being integrated with the neuronal activity of experience seems like a connection that, in my opinion, could be at least be considered a part of you.
I also suspect that consciousness is not a singular process in the brain, but a coalescence of various levels of awareness. If this is true, like it most likely is, then only a part of yourself would be transfered along with the stack. Then again, this can also be said in regards to a general person as they replace cells while growing and aging.
It seems like the study of consciousness is a back and forth kind of mind game that we may never fully pinpoint, but I am optimistic that we'll know enough that these questions can be answered with enough clarity to be useful when biotech is advanced enough to allow for artificial transplants.
So, I don't think mind uploading is an accurate form of consciousness transfer, but I do think that transplants or progressive replacements in the form of stacks or gradual artificial neurons is closer to that if at all possible.
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The philosophy of identity is very interesting when applied to the Sci-Fi book and series -Altered Carbon-. In the show, the consciousness of a person can be stored on a highly advanced piece of alien technology called a -stack-. A person can switch bodies and retain their memories by transplanting their stack to another body. Even in this fictional universe, I would still be skeptical of my retention of self even though my memories or maybe some aspect of my consciousness would be transplanted because the brain is not part of this transference, only this chip, the stack.
To anyone who's seen the show or understands the concept, what do you think? For instance, there's lots of talk in the transhumanist sphere that people will be able to upload all their mind data to the cloud or some other digital medium to continue living in another realm, but I find that to be more of a copy of consciousness rather than a transference because you could upload that data while remaining in your own body. But something like a stack that is connected to the body by being integrated with the neuronal activity of experience seems like a connection that, in my opinion, could be at least be considered a part of you.
I also suspect that consciousness is not a singular process in the brain, but a coalescence of various levels of awareness. If this is true, like it most likely is, then only a part of yourself would be transfered along with the stack. Then again, this can also be said in regards to a general person as they replace cells while growing and aging.
It seems like the study of consciousness is a back and forth kind of mind game that we may never fully pinpoint, but I am optimistic that we'll know enough that these questions can be answered with enough clarity to be useful when biotech is advanced enough to allow for artificial transplants.
So, I don't think mind uploading is an accurate form of consciousness transfer, but I do think that transplants or progressive replacements in the form of stacks or gradual artificial neurons is closer to that if at all possible.
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Generic
While, you may stay the same person throughout your life, you have multiple identitites. You presumably identify with some religion, geography, nationality, and ethnicity, or none at all. Although identifying as no particular ethnicity is kind of ridiculous, I suppose you could do so. If you were born in Chicago, then we can classify you as a Chicagoan based on geography. Likewise for larger constructs like religion and nationality.
Most of these things are independent of each other and they can change while the others stay the same. If you move countries you may decide to change your identity. Or if you are a Rhodesian fleeing Rhodesia who decides later on to regect racism then you may ask to be called a Zimbabwean. All the while, your brother could still identify as a Rhodesian. In this way, your ethnicity can change. And often times, certain ethnicities are reclassified. Like Sicilians being reclassified as white in America.
There is much debate about whether or not you can classify humans like insects but this is the reality that exists.
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While, you may stay the same person throughout your life, you have multiple identitites. You presumably identify with some religion, geography, nationality, and ethnicity, or none at all. Although identifying as no particular ethnicity is kind of ridiculous, I suppose you could do so. If you were born in Chicago, then we can classify you as a Chicagoan based on geography. Likewise for larger constructs like religion and nationality.
Most of these things are independent of each other and they can change while the others stay the same. If you move countries you may decide to change your identity. Or if you are a Rhodesian fleeing Rhodesia who decides later on to regect racism then you may ask to be called a Zimbabwean. All the while, your brother could still identify as a Rhodesian. In this way, your ethnicity can change. And often times, certain ethnicities are reclassified. Like Sicilians being reclassified as white in America.
There is much debate about whether or not you can classify humans like insects but this is the reality that exists.
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Peter
Interesting to consider that part of the issue may be that we are inclined to frame questions about reality/identity as a screenshot at a particular moment in time. (Quantum mechanics problem may also arise from similar screen-shot framing?
Our inclination to -screen-shot- identity/reality, may be too limiting and getting in the way of understanding the deeper reality that can be gained by framing it as a continuum.
As Pirandello so brilliantly explored, people are comprised of shifting identities through time. You are your thoughts, and some of those thoughts are identity thoughts. But even though the arch of a few minutes, or a day, depending on our mood and frame of mind, we may have a different reaction to the same circumstance, or think of ourselves in a different way.
Maybe interesting to frame identity as the probability of a certain thought/action output when exposed to a certain set of input/circumstances. Therefore, how you perceive and interact with circumstances defines you.
reply
Interesting to consider that part of the issue may be that we are inclined to frame questions about reality/identity as a screenshot at a particular moment in time. (Quantum mechanics problem may also arise from similar screen-shot framing?
Our inclination to -screen-shot- identity/reality, may be too limiting and getting in the way of understanding the deeper reality that can be gained by framing it as a continuum.
As Pirandello so brilliantly explored, people are comprised of shifting identities through time. You are your thoughts, and some of those thoughts are identity thoughts. But even though the arch of a few minutes, or a day, depending on our mood and frame of mind, we may have a different reaction to the same circumstance, or think of ourselves in a different way.
Maybe interesting to frame identity as the probability of a certain thought/action output when exposed to a certain set of input/circumstances. Therefore, how you perceive and interact with circumstances defines you.
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Frank
I'm missing the perspective that what you are is a pattern.
A pattern that persists over time, even though the matter that it consists of changes. Similar to the boat. It is this pattern that is being duplicated when you get children and that gets duplicated when you share your ideas with others. The pattern of you can change, so -the you- is in that part that is most like the pattern was before, and the new you is the old you, just a changed version of it. If your brain gets transplanted, the thoughts of you go into the newly transplanted body and the body version of you stays in the same body, you are split.
I know that this is not a published scientific perspective, but it makes so much more sense and seems to solve most of the problems that these two face - just my two cents
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I'm missing the perspective that what you are is a pattern.
A pattern that persists over time, even though the matter that it consists of changes. Similar to the boat. It is this pattern that is being duplicated when you get children and that gets duplicated when you share your ideas with others. The pattern of you can change, so -the you- is in that part that is most like the pattern was before, and the new you is the old you, just a changed version of it. If your brain gets transplanted, the thoughts of you go into the newly transplanted body and the body version of you stays in the same body, you are split.
I know that this is not a published scientific perspective, but it makes so much more sense and seems to solve most of the problems that these two face - just my two cents
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Plant5312
I'm quite fond of memory theory, but it doesn't really work for objects since they don't have memories.
For that I propose another theory: the continuity theory. My idea is that people and objects can be considered as lines in spacetime, and just as lines on a graph are considered one contiguous line even though they change their position on the Y axis, the object remains the same object even if parts of it are replaced or altered. Smaller lines might branch off of it and merge with it, and it's shape might change, but the main line remains continuous since the changes happen gradually. An object's Identity is that line, not any one point along it.
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I'm quite fond of memory theory, but it doesn't really work for objects since they don't have memories.
For that I propose another theory: the continuity theory. My idea is that people and objects can be considered as lines in spacetime, and just as lines on a graph are considered one contiguous line even though they change their position on the Y axis, the object remains the same object even if parts of it are replaced or altered. Smaller lines might branch off of it and merge with it, and it's shape might change, but the main line remains continuous since the changes happen gradually. An object's Identity is that line, not any one point along it.
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Thomas
I said this in the last episode, but it still applies. There are two main factors of identity. Material and Immaterial. Each of these are comprised of many parts, but each part is a building block of your identity as a whole. We might not value the carbon or the water molecules that made up the bulk of our bodies as much as we value our beliefs and treatment if others, but they at least contribute in some small part.
So I-ll finish by saying that there are material and immaterial parts of us with varying degrees of qualifying substance. Not every atom is essential, nor is every memory. But identity is comprised of these many things regardless.
reply
I said this in the last episode, but it still applies. There are two main factors of identity. Material and Immaterial. Each of these are comprised of many parts, but each part is a building block of your identity as a whole. We might not value the carbon or the water molecules that made up the bulk of our bodies as much as we value our beliefs and treatment if others, but they at least contribute in some small part.
So I-ll finish by saying that there are material and immaterial parts of us with varying degrees of qualifying substance. Not every atom is essential, nor is every memory. But identity is comprised of these many things regardless.
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Mark
How many times in a lifetime can I swap out the calcium in my skelton and still be myself?
Isn't this just the theory of computability?
That the functional relationship of -things- produces a function capacity, such as -myself-
As the function relationships of the components of the brain deteriorate the self eroids and disappears)
Are these expectations of the fixed nature of identity just a neurological construct common to most mammals?
The only problem is when a realist-empiricist gets their heart broken and they become visceral
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How many times in a lifetime can I swap out the calcium in my skelton and still be myself?
Isn't this just the theory of computability?
That the functional relationship of -things- produces a function capacity, such as -myself-
As the function relationships of the components of the brain deteriorate the self eroids and disappears)
Are these expectations of the fixed nature of identity just a neurological construct common to most mammals?
The only problem is when a realist-empiricist gets their heart broken and they become visceral
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TheFireMonkey
I personally believe that we have a non-physical component and a physical component [a view shared by most if not all religions throughout history though I suspect my personal view is a bit different from the major religions] and so I believe that what makes me -me- is that other component, which I believe remains the same over time. Trouble with that [as with most of philosophy ] it can be believed but not proven.
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I personally believe that we have a non-physical component and a physical component [a view shared by most if not all religions throughout history though I suspect my personal view is a bit different from the major religions] and so I believe that what makes me -me- is that other component, which I believe remains the same over time. Trouble with that [as with most of philosophy ] it can be believed but not proven.
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Justin
I think the answer to this question lies in your ability to believe in the existence of the soul. Sure your cells could all be replaced, you can lose all your memories, but you are still you because the same soul that inhabits you is still you.
For example, if a gay person lost all of his memories does is he still gay?
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I think the answer to this question lies in your ability to believe in the existence of the soul. Sure your cells could all be replaced, you can lose all your memories, but you are still you because the same soul that inhabits you is still you.
For example, if a gay person lost all of his memories does is he still gay?
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Jacob
In my opinion, personal identity is nothing but thought process, cognition and biological make-up. If the girl in freaky Friday was in a vegetative state, she would essentially not exist as she swapped bodies with her mother. It's a relationship between all properties that creates personal identity.
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In my opinion, personal identity is nothing but thought process, cognition and biological make-up. If the girl in freaky Friday was in a vegetative state, she would essentially not exist as she swapped bodies with her mother. It's a relationship between all properties that creates personal identity.
reply
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