The Dishonest Criticisms Against Tiling Window Managers DistroTube
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Date: 2022-03-30
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Comments and reviews: 10
Cuttlefish
I think context is important here. Windows users, just like DE users, probably have other things going on that they don't have time to configure their own WM. Another way of looking at this is the OTB perspective (before the conversion); -I use a Desktop Environment because I know what I like and I like what I know.- A lot of people probably needed a quarantine to deep dive into topics usually left to the hardcore hobbyists. Otherwise, their focus was just using their computers for their work/play rather than their work/play being how to use their computers.
Just an aside; a DE looks better out of the box than a WM usually, and the only thing that makes a WM harder to use than a DE is figuring out where the config file is. At that point you can just keep the config open as a cheat sheet in another workspace and then it's just as easy to use as a DE out of the box.
This is also good if you're like me and like to config as you go about using your computer. This is where configuring a WM is faster than configuring a DE, imo, because it's faster to Ctrl+F and edit a text file than it is to click through menus until you find the right settings. However, if you customize/configure everything at once as soon as you've freshly installed something, it's easier and faster to say -Yeah that's good enough, I like what I got here- with a DE than a WM. This is because configuring a DE is mostly browsing through the menus with no clear goal in mind, just setting what sounds good as you come across them, whereas a WM will require you to know exactly what you want from the get-go, and/or reading documentation.
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I think context is important here. Windows users, just like DE users, probably have other things going on that they don't have time to configure their own WM. Another way of looking at this is the OTB perspective (before the conversion); -I use a Desktop Environment because I know what I like and I like what I know.- A lot of people probably needed a quarantine to deep dive into topics usually left to the hardcore hobbyists. Otherwise, their focus was just using their computers for their work/play rather than their work/play being how to use their computers.
Just an aside; a DE looks better out of the box than a WM usually, and the only thing that makes a WM harder to use than a DE is figuring out where the config file is. At that point you can just keep the config open as a cheat sheet in another workspace and then it's just as easy to use as a DE out of the box.
This is also good if you're like me and like to config as you go about using your computer. This is where configuring a WM is faster than configuring a DE, imo, because it's faster to Ctrl+F and edit a text file than it is to click through menus until you find the right settings. However, if you customize/configure everything at once as soon as you've freshly installed something, it's easier and faster to say -Yeah that's good enough, I like what I got here- with a DE than a WM. This is because configuring a DE is mostly browsing through the menus with no clear goal in mind, just setting what sounds good as you come across them, whereas a WM will require you to know exactly what you want from the get-go, and/or reading documentation.
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Youtube
I configured my FVWM desktop using MWM in 1998 and I have been using essentially that configuration since in more than one application on both hardware and virtual machines. In order to configure my FVWM desktop I had to learn M4 because that's all they had in 1998, since then they have added other languages for configuration but I haven't bothered to switch. The first Windows I used was 98 and that was after I had used FVWM on Linux with multiple desktops which, because they were lacking in Windows 98, made me consider Windows and all Microsoft products to be garbage from the first encounter. Since then I used KDE for a while until it pissed me off enough to switch to XFCE which so far hasn't pissed me off requiring me to switch. I had Gnome installed and started it long enough to figure out it was garbage, that was before 3, when 3 showed up I had to expunge Gnome entirely. I have used CDE on Solaris but never as my main desktop. I use TWM for a virtual machine in a specific application. When I fist saw videos about tiling window managers I had to figure out what they were and after did some studying nothing that I found out made me want to spin up a virtual machine to try one out or even, given that I'm using Gentoo, install DWM to give it a spin.
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I configured my FVWM desktop using MWM in 1998 and I have been using essentially that configuration since in more than one application on both hardware and virtual machines. In order to configure my FVWM desktop I had to learn M4 because that's all they had in 1998, since then they have added other languages for configuration but I haven't bothered to switch. The first Windows I used was 98 and that was after I had used FVWM on Linux with multiple desktops which, because they were lacking in Windows 98, made me consider Windows and all Microsoft products to be garbage from the first encounter. Since then I used KDE for a while until it pissed me off enough to switch to XFCE which so far hasn't pissed me off requiring me to switch. I had Gnome installed and started it long enough to figure out it was garbage, that was before 3, when 3 showed up I had to expunge Gnome entirely. I have used CDE on Solaris but never as my main desktop. I use TWM for a virtual machine in a specific application. When I fist saw videos about tiling window managers I had to figure out what they were and after did some studying nothing that I found out made me want to spin up a virtual machine to try one out or even, given that I'm using Gentoo, install DWM to give it a spin.
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Matt
Those people who say that certain DEs/WMs suck are acting like they suffer from some kind of cognitive disonance. What's the point of using Linux when you complain about different visions of computer experience or there's too much stuff to choose? Just install Windows and stop creating another -first world issues-. I used stacking WMs and Windows-like DEs for about 10 years and now instaled i3wm on Sparkylinux and it's freaking great. It was so nicely configured that I only changed i3bar and window title bar color from blue to black by editing the config file. And that's it. It's something new to me, it's fast and I learned how to use it in one hour. It had conky widget with all the most important hotkeys already there. If it doesn't work for some people they should just use normal DE like Cinnamon or Mate with all the stuff configured for a Windows user and don't waste time for learning new stuff if they are going to complain. The best part of being Linux user is having tons of stuff to try out and finding your favourite things to use.
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Those people who say that certain DEs/WMs suck are acting like they suffer from some kind of cognitive disonance. What's the point of using Linux when you complain about different visions of computer experience or there's too much stuff to choose? Just install Windows and stop creating another -first world issues-. I used stacking WMs and Windows-like DEs for about 10 years and now instaled i3wm on Sparkylinux and it's freaking great. It was so nicely configured that I only changed i3bar and window title bar color from blue to black by editing the config file. And that's it. It's something new to me, it's fast and I learned how to use it in one hour. It had conky widget with all the most important hotkeys already there. If it doesn't work for some people they should just use normal DE like Cinnamon or Mate with all the stuff configured for a Windows user and don't waste time for learning new stuff if they are going to complain. The best part of being Linux user is having tons of stuff to try out and finding your favourite things to use.
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Joscha
I've tried Awesome and i3, and neither has gotten anywhere near convincing me. Awesome was a nightmare, but given that I'd no idea what I was doing, it's likely that was down to me.
I took about four or five hours today trying to get i3 to run on Manjaro. I did, even though there were quite a few things still to do, and a lot of key bindings to learn or create. But after all that, the panel was still less than useful, automatically connecting to wifi took well over five minutes, KRunner and Dolphin might or might not load up correctly... and it still used up some .95G where my heavily-customised KDE session, on the same machine, uses 1.25G or so -of 15.6G available.
If you're using TWMs because you like them, and you're comfortable that way, more power to you. If you're checking them out to reduce the drain on resources, perhaps you'd better swap your HDD for an SSD and get some extra RAM -it's going to be a better deal.
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I've tried Awesome and i3, and neither has gotten anywhere near convincing me. Awesome was a nightmare, but given that I'd no idea what I was doing, it's likely that was down to me.
I took about four or five hours today trying to get i3 to run on Manjaro. I did, even though there were quite a few things still to do, and a lot of key bindings to learn or create. But after all that, the panel was still less than useful, automatically connecting to wifi took well over five minutes, KRunner and Dolphin might or might not load up correctly... and it still used up some .95G where my heavily-customised KDE session, on the same machine, uses 1.25G or so -of 15.6G available.
If you're using TWMs because you like them, and you're comfortable that way, more power to you. If you're checking them out to reduce the drain on resources, perhaps you'd better swap your HDD for an SSD and get some extra RAM -it's going to be a better deal.
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Aryan
I used dwm for a month and loved it, but I soon realized that I was not being considerably more productive. the percieved speed may be faster but the app launching speed is still limited by the processing power of the computer and even after using the computer through keyboard shortcuts entirely I was still faster while using my touchpad gestures(Yes I use a laptop) and configuring touchpad gestures with dwm though was painful(touchegg) but even after setting up my desired three finger and 4 finger gestures the system's idle usage went up and was equally as heavy as a desktop enviroment.
When I switched back to gnome(wayland) the system felt slow(animations) but it was a lot more energy efficient(again, I use a laptop) so it decided to stick with it.
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I used dwm for a month and loved it, but I soon realized that I was not being considerably more productive. the percieved speed may be faster but the app launching speed is still limited by the processing power of the computer and even after using the computer through keyboard shortcuts entirely I was still faster while using my touchpad gestures(Yes I use a laptop) and configuring touchpad gestures with dwm though was painful(touchegg) but even after setting up my desired three finger and 4 finger gestures the system's idle usage went up and was equally as heavy as a desktop enviroment.
When I switched back to gnome(wayland) the system felt slow(animations) but it was a lot more energy efficient(again, I use a laptop) so it decided to stick with it.
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Coringa
My view of TWMs (pros and cons):
PROS:
light (raspberry user here)
agile (tiling, workspaces, dmenu etc)
ergonomical (my dad retired from it)
minimalist / great for small screens
stability (kinda)
-pretty- (potencially)
CONS:
learn the concept + shortkeys (30min)
resizing windows (ok for me)
comunitary distros with bugs
ugly looks (out of the box)
advanced debugging
and the main challenge:
CONFIGURATION... for me, raspberry pi os with novaspirit's i3 worked very well, and i'm curious to try manjaro i3 or lubuntu+sway soon. As long as you use the system with a DE you like, you don't need to face too much of config files. Good luck if you encounter a bug as well.
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My view of TWMs (pros and cons):
PROS:
light (raspberry user here)
agile (tiling, workspaces, dmenu etc)
ergonomical (my dad retired from it)
minimalist / great for small screens
stability (kinda)
-pretty- (potencially)
CONS:
learn the concept + shortkeys (30min)
resizing windows (ok for me)
comunitary distros with bugs
ugly looks (out of the box)
advanced debugging
and the main challenge:
CONFIGURATION... for me, raspberry pi os with novaspirit's i3 worked very well, and i'm curious to try manjaro i3 or lubuntu+sway soon. As long as you use the system with a DE you like, you don't need to face too much of config files. Good luck if you encounter a bug as well.
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ngc
As a former unix/linux administrator for -20 years, I've tried a lot of things...I mean it. Full Tilling WM is not my stuff for many reasons. That been said, I am using tilling features for all of my WM's. Openbox and CWM are my choices with some tilling features I need daily. I like to be extra productive, relying on keyboard bindings for everything. In same time, there are still moments when I like to lean back at my chair and use almost only mouse. However these moments are rare :)
As I perfectly understand what you are trying to say here, I think you are missing one detail - IMHO the Issue is not tiling vs stacking but WM vs DE in most people heads. They just cannot synthesize it properly :)
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As a former unix/linux administrator for -20 years, I've tried a lot of things...I mean it. Full Tilling WM is not my stuff for many reasons. That been said, I am using tilling features for all of my WM's. Openbox and CWM are my choices with some tilling features I need daily. I like to be extra productive, relying on keyboard bindings for everything. In same time, there are still moments when I like to lean back at my chair and use almost only mouse. However these moments are rare :)
As I perfectly understand what you are trying to say here, I think you are missing one detail - IMHO the Issue is not tiling vs stacking but WM vs DE in most people heads. They just cannot synthesize it properly :)
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Buddha's
DT is right. before trying tiling WM I used to think it won't change anything. but I have to say it gives you a beautiful experience in computing. I tried switching to floating wm few days ago, its horrible to use floating wm for me now. Think about how your life changed after learning vim. it changes much more in terms of a computer using. I use xmonad and its just amazing. I think it also depends on your usage of computer. If you use for minor task then floating wm is fine. but if you are like me who spend 8-12 hrs a day for work, tiling wm will give you a beautiful experience for sure.
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DT is right. before trying tiling WM I used to think it won't change anything. but I have to say it gives you a beautiful experience in computing. I tried switching to floating wm few days ago, its horrible to use floating wm for me now. Think about how your life changed after learning vim. it changes much more in terms of a computer using. I use xmonad and its just amazing. I think it also depends on your usage of computer. If you use for minor task then floating wm is fine. but if you are like me who spend 8-12 hrs a day for work, tiling wm will give you a beautiful experience for sure.
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Ivan
My problem with tiling managers is memorizing shortcuts. I just can't. There are so many things to memorize these days and I'm overloaded. I tried few times tiling managers, but any time I use them, I have to google how to do something or go into configuration and read what shortcut is for what action. Working like that is impossible, so every time I tried, every time I returned back to floating windows, because it just works. Unfortunatelly, I have not found tiling manager that does not require memorizing a ton of shortuts and can be mostly used by mouse. If someone knows such, let me know.
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My problem with tiling managers is memorizing shortcuts. I just can't. There are so many things to memorize these days and I'm overloaded. I tried few times tiling managers, but any time I use them, I have to google how to do something or go into configuration and read what shortcut is for what action. Working like that is impossible, so every time I tried, every time I returned back to floating windows, because it just works. Unfortunatelly, I have not found tiling manager that does not require memorizing a ton of shortuts and can be mostly used by mouse. If someone knows such, let me know.
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Hans
Yes people had to invest some time in learning when Gnome 3 was released.
But honestly, that happened 11 years ago. And even though it is so seldom, people went crazy because it all changed and they had to relearn everything.
The truth is, that you people just love to configure and setup window managers. There is nothing bad about that.
I totally get that, I just like setting up my computer, too. If everything is set up already it-s kind of boring.
I don-t use tiling WM though. Just don-t like that my screen always feels too small.
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Yes people had to invest some time in learning when Gnome 3 was released.
But honestly, that happened 11 years ago. And even though it is so seldom, people went crazy because it all changed and they had to relearn everything.
The truth is, that you people just love to configure and setup window managers. There is nothing bad about that.
I totally get that, I just like setting up my computer, too. If everything is set up already it-s kind of boring.
I don-t use tiling WM though. Just don-t like that my screen always feels too small.
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