AMD Exclusive Q&A: Zen 3 & X370, B450 Feature Blocking, DDR5, & Post-Mortem
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Date: 2020-05-20
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Comments and reviews: 9
magottyk
If you were to line up the most stable and best performing boards out of the 300 and 400 series, a few of the top 10 would be X370 boards. Memory trace topology only matters when running the higher frequency memory and if the difference between a 300 and 400 series board is whether or not you hit 3800 with your Zen 3 processor, then I'd hardly consider that problematic when you just need to hit 3200 which people did regularly with Ryzen 2000 series CPUs on their 300 series boards, or if you got one of the really crap boards there's nothing stopping people running at the official 2667 spec instead of 2933 which was the frequency AMD suggested people test with at Ryzens first launch. Rather interestingly the Crosshair VIII shows 3200 before overclock labels, but other X570 like the strix x570-F only show 2666 with all higher frequencies marked (OC), what's that all about ASUS? 300 and 400 series average VRM no difference at all, it's only if you take the boards that improved the VRM's would you be able to make that average claim by adding them all up and dividing, Gigabyte didn't change most of their B450 boards VRMs from their B350 configuration, while Asus only changed the high side fet from 4C09B to 4C10B a lower power but slightly more responsive part. Only MSI made significant changes by changing the chips used completely, Asrock used the same configuration for half their 400 boards as they were on 300 series boards. As to PCB layer changes, I can't find any information as to what they are and by all other inferences nothing really changed except maybe min spec with most boards above the minimum anyway and perhaps some routing rules that only affect the most basic boards or offer marginal improvements. All I see are marginal excuses from AMD for not supporting 300 series boards and that goes double for not supporting X370 at least. I swore that next time I'd not get stuck with a mid level board (AM3+ 970) preventing me from running or properly overclocking a higher performance chip. Turns out that on AM4 we needn't have bothered spending extra (over 2X) on an enthusiast class board as there's been no real benefit in having an X class chipset, not even a forward compatibility bonus as seen on previous sockets as most B350 class boards can successfully run a 3950X including my vrm heatsinkless 4+2 phase B350M-A. AMD owes people who bought enthusiast class boards as the dropping of crossfire removed the principle purpose of the main benefit of owning one (x8x8 config). I will protest and not accept the non inclusion of X370 for Zen 3 compatibility.
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If you were to line up the most stable and best performing boards out of the 300 and 400 series, a few of the top 10 would be X370 boards. Memory trace topology only matters when running the higher frequency memory and if the difference between a 300 and 400 series board is whether or not you hit 3800 with your Zen 3 processor, then I'd hardly consider that problematic when you just need to hit 3200 which people did regularly with Ryzen 2000 series CPUs on their 300 series boards, or if you got one of the really crap boards there's nothing stopping people running at the official 2667 spec instead of 2933 which was the frequency AMD suggested people test with at Ryzens first launch. Rather interestingly the Crosshair VIII shows 3200 before overclock labels, but other X570 like the strix x570-F only show 2666 with all higher frequencies marked (OC), what's that all about ASUS? 300 and 400 series average VRM no difference at all, it's only if you take the boards that improved the VRM's would you be able to make that average claim by adding them all up and dividing, Gigabyte didn't change most of their B450 boards VRMs from their B350 configuration, while Asus only changed the high side fet from 4C09B to 4C10B a lower power but slightly more responsive part. Only MSI made significant changes by changing the chips used completely, Asrock used the same configuration for half their 400 boards as they were on 300 series boards. As to PCB layer changes, I can't find any information as to what they are and by all other inferences nothing really changed except maybe min spec with most boards above the minimum anyway and perhaps some routing rules that only affect the most basic boards or offer marginal improvements. All I see are marginal excuses from AMD for not supporting 300 series boards and that goes double for not supporting X370 at least. I swore that next time I'd not get stuck with a mid level board (AM3+ 970) preventing me from running or properly overclocking a higher performance chip. Turns out that on AM4 we needn't have bothered spending extra (over 2X) on an enthusiast class board as there's been no real benefit in having an X class chipset, not even a forward compatibility bonus as seen on previous sockets as most B350 class boards can successfully run a 3950X including my vrm heatsinkless 4+2 phase B350M-A. AMD owes people who bought enthusiast class boards as the dropping of crossfire removed the principle purpose of the main benefit of owning one (x8x8 config). I will protest and not accept the non inclusion of X370 for Zen 3 compatibility.
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ErrrrdayImShufflin'
Thats B.S. Thats not true, thats not true There is plenty of space in the ROM I think you misunderstood what everyone was saying! I know you saw the responses on reddit to your last video as I saw you make multiple comments (I dont know if it was exactly you or someone else behind GN). People didnt believe that the reason given made it impossible to put support Zen 3 on 16MB. Everyone understood that to do so would probably require dropping support for other CPUs; they just argued that the reason is BS for why they couldnt support Zen 3 on B450 and lo and behold they turned around and said they were going to do it! So what? Now its possible? Yeah, of course they will have to drop support for other chips. THAT was what everyone was telling AMD to do. Hardware Unboxed picked up on that as they presented the possibility in their video. Here is why people said it was B.S. - Some x570 boards have 16MB - Some B450 boards have 32MB - Boards with 16MB somehow support Zen, Zen+, and Zen 2 chips, but somehow Boards with 32MB can only support 2 gen? - It was revealed to be a last minute business decision. Meaning it was on the table prior. They should have explored all options before the decision but apparently they didnt. How could they not have considering the backlash that resulted in unofficial support for Zen 2 on 300 boards. Nobody that I know of believed or claimed that 16MB can reasonably contain the bios supporting all series of chips (including APUs) from 4 gens! I dont hold anything against you guys, but I find the fact that you guys can be unnecessarily defensive as not constructive going forward. You end up highlighting fringe arguments and making it seem like they are the reasons for the backlash? Again, it is possible to extend support for B450 MBs and AMD has now cleared that up. Is it easy? Probably not for many of the reasons you elaborated on. Will it cost AMD and MB manufacturers? Absolutely. Is it the right thing to do considering all the elements behind this fiasco? Yes. For sure.
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Thats B.S. Thats not true, thats not true There is plenty of space in the ROM I think you misunderstood what everyone was saying! I know you saw the responses on reddit to your last video as I saw you make multiple comments (I dont know if it was exactly you or someone else behind GN). People didnt believe that the reason given made it impossible to put support Zen 3 on 16MB. Everyone understood that to do so would probably require dropping support for other CPUs; they just argued that the reason is BS for why they couldnt support Zen 3 on B450 and lo and behold they turned around and said they were going to do it! So what? Now its possible? Yeah, of course they will have to drop support for other chips. THAT was what everyone was telling AMD to do. Hardware Unboxed picked up on that as they presented the possibility in their video. Here is why people said it was B.S. - Some x570 boards have 16MB - Some B450 boards have 32MB - Boards with 16MB somehow support Zen, Zen+, and Zen 2 chips, but somehow Boards with 32MB can only support 2 gen? - It was revealed to be a last minute business decision. Meaning it was on the table prior. They should have explored all options before the decision but apparently they didnt. How could they not have considering the backlash that resulted in unofficial support for Zen 2 on 300 boards. Nobody that I know of believed or claimed that 16MB can reasonably contain the bios supporting all series of chips (including APUs) from 4 gens! I dont hold anything against you guys, but I find the fact that you guys can be unnecessarily defensive as not constructive going forward. You end up highlighting fringe arguments and making it seem like they are the reasons for the backlash? Again, it is possible to extend support for B450 MBs and AMD has now cleared that up. Is it easy? Probably not for many of the reasons you elaborated on. Will it cost AMD and MB manufacturers? Absolutely. Is it the right thing to do considering all the elements behind this fiasco? Yes. For sure.
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Abheek
Thank you Steve for talking about 300 series support. Everyone else is acting like that the 300 series doesn't exist, and neither do it's users. As someone with a perfectly happy X370 K7 board that boosts my 3800X as high as 4.5GHz (of course it's heavily cooled), I'm very upset at their lack of even acknowledging the presence of their earliest Ryzen backers. Given that the 300 series boards had to deal with the most inefficient and unrefined Ryzen chips so far with the Ryzen 1000 series and that the mildly refreshed 400 series will be enjoying support for Zen3, it's very upsetting to have been left out for no reason other than , oh you already got a couple upgrades so you got your money's worth . No. If the boards are not utilized to their full potential, that isn't getting their full worth. It's not about being cheated out of 1 or 1mil, it's about being cheated. Doesn't feel good. Like you said earlier, it would be absolutely possible to run Zen3 on the 300 series, but it seems that may not happen and for no good reason which is entirely unfair. Thank you for at least acknowledging the 300 series and talking concretely about it's support of Zen3. You're the only one doing it so far. I and surely other 300 series board owners definitely greatly appreciate it. Rant over.
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Thank you Steve for talking about 300 series support. Everyone else is acting like that the 300 series doesn't exist, and neither do it's users. As someone with a perfectly happy X370 K7 board that boosts my 3800X as high as 4.5GHz (of course it's heavily cooled), I'm very upset at their lack of even acknowledging the presence of their earliest Ryzen backers. Given that the 300 series boards had to deal with the most inefficient and unrefined Ryzen chips so far with the Ryzen 1000 series and that the mildly refreshed 400 series will be enjoying support for Zen3, it's very upsetting to have been left out for no reason other than , oh you already got a couple upgrades so you got your money's worth . No. If the boards are not utilized to their full potential, that isn't getting their full worth. It's not about being cheated out of 1 or 1mil, it's about being cheated. Doesn't feel good. Like you said earlier, it would be absolutely possible to run Zen3 on the 300 series, but it seems that may not happen and for no good reason which is entirely unfair. Thank you for at least acknowledging the 300 series and talking concretely about it's support of Zen3. You're the only one doing it so far. I and surely other 300 series board owners definitely greatly appreciate it. Rant over.
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bigtop1967
Thanks for the excellent information! I think AMD have been quite 'clever' here... As mentioned, some 4xx board had (some have!) PCIE 4 disabled half way through their life. AMD used PCIE 4 to differentiate products - but now they have done this, everyone is extremely grateful (including me) that their 1year old product will support the next CPU. For me, is still startlingly obvious that PCIE 4 is being removed unnecessarily. They claimed to be protecting us, but when our boards were designed, manufacturers knew PCIE4 was coming, and (most) designed for it, many still run bios with it enabled... so although I'm happy about this, I STILL believe they should leave PCIE4 in tact, as it would fall under the same 'beta' conditions as the rest of the bios. MSI (and ASUS in at least 1 case) have already done the 'impossible' and re-enabled it on some B450 boards. B550 looks like it's a modest upgrade to X470. I'm happy though that I have an upgrade path which doesn't require an expensive MB update immediately. So - AMD can now say 'we gave you Zen 3 support' - which makes it a lot harder to complain about PCIE 4, when they've already gone out of their way to support us users. I bet X670 will get something that everyone will complain about!
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Thanks for the excellent information! I think AMD have been quite 'clever' here... As mentioned, some 4xx board had (some have!) PCIE 4 disabled half way through their life. AMD used PCIE 4 to differentiate products - but now they have done this, everyone is extremely grateful (including me) that their 1year old product will support the next CPU. For me, is still startlingly obvious that PCIE 4 is being removed unnecessarily. They claimed to be protecting us, but when our boards were designed, manufacturers knew PCIE4 was coming, and (most) designed for it, many still run bios with it enabled... so although I'm happy about this, I STILL believe they should leave PCIE4 in tact, as it would fall under the same 'beta' conditions as the rest of the bios. MSI (and ASUS in at least 1 case) have already done the 'impossible' and re-enabled it on some B450 boards. B550 looks like it's a modest upgrade to X470. I'm happy though that I have an upgrade path which doesn't require an expensive MB update immediately. So - AMD can now say 'we gave you Zen 3 support' - which makes it a lot harder to complain about PCIE 4, when they've already gone out of their way to support us users. I bet X670 will get something that everyone will complain about!
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Gkirmathal
I reckon the full details of this endeavor still need to be ironed out. A few things what AMD mentions still brings up a question or two that makes picturing what they said a bit hard regarding: disable support for existing Ryzen desktop products , need for ROM filesystem reconfiguration , non reversibility and the mentioning of Zen3 register to access the beta bios . They mention they'll leave it AIB's to decide which prev gen Ryzens and bios features to remove to make room for Zen3. Especially important on 16mb boards. What will be the likelihood that those get a bios that is FULLY stripped of ALL previous Zen (1, 1+ & 2) support and thus exclusively & only supports Zen3 products? Then the question comes to mind, what about 16mb X570 boards? For boards with 32mb ROM's, 400 and also 500 series alike, they have more space to maneuver. For the 400/500 series how could this look like? Dual partitioned 16/16 bios that adds support for prev gens that cannot address 32mb? Or is it more likely that a combination of Zen2 + Zen3 on a full 32mb partition is going to be developed? I'm aware it's too early days to get any answers on this though, as I reckon most AIB's bios devs will be contemplating as well how and what they are gonna do.
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I reckon the full details of this endeavor still need to be ironed out. A few things what AMD mentions still brings up a question or two that makes picturing what they said a bit hard regarding: disable support for existing Ryzen desktop products , need for ROM filesystem reconfiguration , non reversibility and the mentioning of Zen3 register to access the beta bios . They mention they'll leave it AIB's to decide which prev gen Ryzens and bios features to remove to make room for Zen3. Especially important on 16mb boards. What will be the likelihood that those get a bios that is FULLY stripped of ALL previous Zen (1, 1+ & 2) support and thus exclusively & only supports Zen3 products? Then the question comes to mind, what about 16mb X570 boards? For boards with 32mb ROM's, 400 and also 500 series alike, they have more space to maneuver. For the 400/500 series how could this look like? Dual partitioned 16/16 bios that adds support for prev gens that cannot address 32mb? Or is it more likely that a combination of Zen2 + Zen3 on a full 32mb partition is going to be developed? I'm aware it's too early days to get any answers on this though, as I reckon most AIB's bios devs will be contemplating as well how and what they are gonna do.
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Wrociem
Gamer Nexus videos on this topic have been the best so far with very good comprehensive info. Well done. Personally I am disappointed that AMD has given into the very vocal complaining minority, AMD is still seen as not a fully reliable option, there have been too many issues that crop up with each launch. AMD need to transition to being more reliable for each product launch than catering to supporting every combination under the sun. Going forward, series 400 boards are going to end up as a big no no (when buying second hand) as u never will be sure what u will get considering the options. That hassle will not be worth it. Going forward, I do agree that AMD need to be more clearer on their future product support to avoid the same episode occurring in future. For AM5, stipulating only 2 series of cpu support would be a good balance, though I would not be surprised if they went the Intel route and support only 1 cpu series due to this backlash. I also expect that 500 series would not support beyond Zen 3 (ie Zen 4) though it would be good to have AMD clarify for sure.I expect DDR5 to require new motherboards irrespective as won't the new DDR5 dimms have different pin layout to DDR4?
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Gamer Nexus videos on this topic have been the best so far with very good comprehensive info. Well done. Personally I am disappointed that AMD has given into the very vocal complaining minority, AMD is still seen as not a fully reliable option, there have been too many issues that crop up with each launch. AMD need to transition to being more reliable for each product launch than catering to supporting every combination under the sun. Going forward, series 400 boards are going to end up as a big no no (when buying second hand) as u never will be sure what u will get considering the options. That hassle will not be worth it. Going forward, I do agree that AMD need to be more clearer on their future product support to avoid the same episode occurring in future. For AM5, stipulating only 2 series of cpu support would be a good balance, though I would not be surprised if they went the Intel route and support only 1 cpu series due to this backlash. I also expect that 500 series would not support beyond Zen 3 (ie Zen 4) though it would be good to have AMD clarify for sure.I expect DDR5 to require new motherboards irrespective as won't the new DDR5 dimms have different pin layout to DDR4?
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SoloWingX
Great coverage Steve, thanks! I have a B450 coupled with a Ryzen 5 2600 I use for gaming. Single-core performance is not the best obviously, but it is needed for some games I have. After being impressed with Zen 2 I decided to be patient and wait for Zen 3. I was disappointed by the news but quickly decided to build a new B550 system, with less corners cut because last time I was on a (lot) stricter budget. Now I don't know what to do: - Spend a lot of money on B550 which platform may or may not have longevity or an upgrade path due to DDR5? - Keep the current board and just slap a 3600X there and make the new build after DDR5? But then DDR5 will be very expensive probably at the beginning. - Wait till Zen 3 is out and see if my board is supported and risk a suboptimal experience? - Make a B550 + Zen 2 (3600X) build this summer which does have and upgrade path to Zen 3/3+ or whatever the future brings? So many options, pros and cons. I am glad this is my biggest problem at the moment but it's hard to decide.
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Great coverage Steve, thanks! I have a B450 coupled with a Ryzen 5 2600 I use for gaming. Single-core performance is not the best obviously, but it is needed for some games I have. After being impressed with Zen 2 I decided to be patient and wait for Zen 3. I was disappointed by the news but quickly decided to build a new B550 system, with less corners cut because last time I was on a (lot) stricter budget. Now I don't know what to do: - Spend a lot of money on B550 which platform may or may not have longevity or an upgrade path due to DDR5? - Keep the current board and just slap a 3600X there and make the new build after DDR5? But then DDR5 will be very expensive probably at the beginning. - Wait till Zen 3 is out and see if my board is supported and risk a suboptimal experience? - Make a B550 + Zen 2 (3600X) build this summer which does have and upgrade path to Zen 3/3+ or whatever the future brings? So many options, pros and cons. I am glad this is my biggest problem at the moment but it's hard to decide.
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dhruv
I as a consumer to AMD: You promised AM4 will be supported for newer CPUs through 2020. You didn't say anything about chipset or bios size and shits at that time. Every single AM4 socket owner regardless of the chipset they own deserves to be able to run every single model of Zen 3 that will be launched in 2020, period. I as a free advisor to AMD: Customers are insatiable leechers. From now on, you better make sure to never promise anything in any form of communication for anything related to future product support when you talk about AM5. And this is especially because you have the best CPU in the world, best in IPC, best in power efficiency, best in number of cores/threads, best in price. Anybody who wants the best will / will have to buy it and you don't need to pamper those customer in advance. Intel never pampered the customers and yet almost everybody bought their CPUs back then when they were good enough. You people at AMD need to learn that.
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I as a consumer to AMD: You promised AM4 will be supported for newer CPUs through 2020. You didn't say anything about chipset or bios size and shits at that time. Every single AM4 socket owner regardless of the chipset they own deserves to be able to run every single model of Zen 3 that will be launched in 2020, period. I as a free advisor to AMD: Customers are insatiable leechers. From now on, you better make sure to never promise anything in any form of communication for anything related to future product support when you talk about AM5. And this is especially because you have the best CPU in the world, best in IPC, best in power efficiency, best in number of cores/threads, best in price. Anybody who wants the best will / will have to buy it and you don't need to pamper those customer in advance. Intel never pampered the customers and yet almost everybody bought their CPUs back then when they were good enough. You people at AMD need to learn that.
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Quadcopter
Still feel BETRAYED by AMD for not supporting my X370-F Strix. Since there is almost zero difference between X370/x470, how can we not feel hung out to dry by AMD Since this would certainly be the end of the line with DDR5 looming..... why not make it complete??? I have said before I would be willing to pay Asus for the Zen 3 bios as I do recognize there is a cost. Also gotta call you on it, why are you agreeing with AMD about all the technical advantages of 300 vs 400, and you calling it 'Way Ahead . Per your review of X470 vs X370 there is no difference other than maybe slightly better memory support (depending on the board vendor). I recognize that you must keep a relationship with AMD, but honestly I did not expect you.... of all people to agree this sh t sandwich is delicious! Still love ya Steve, but to many of us, you just lost a bit of credibility with that sentence. Anyway.... AMD.... Here is your outrage & ! # ( & (& & FK AMD! LoL!
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Still feel BETRAYED by AMD for not supporting my X370-F Strix. Since there is almost zero difference between X370/x470, how can we not feel hung out to dry by AMD Since this would certainly be the end of the line with DDR5 looming..... why not make it complete??? I have said before I would be willing to pay Asus for the Zen 3 bios as I do recognize there is a cost. Also gotta call you on it, why are you agreeing with AMD about all the technical advantages of 300 vs 400, and you calling it 'Way Ahead . Per your review of X470 vs X370 there is no difference other than maybe slightly better memory support (depending on the board vendor). I recognize that you must keep a relationship with AMD, but honestly I did not expect you.... of all people to agree this sh t sandwich is delicious! Still love ya Steve, but to many of us, you just lost a bit of credibility with that sentence. Anyway.... AMD.... Here is your outrage & ! # ( & (& & FK AMD! LoL!
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