Philosophies of Punishment & The Prison Abolition Movement
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Date: 2025-01-27
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Comments and reviews: 20
jenniferburns2530
The US could learn a lot from countries that focus more on rehabilitation, and cultures that utilize restorative justice. If we invested in prevention and intervention (providing services & support) for first-time, non-violent offenders on a large scale, we could reduce incarceration significantly. Once there are fewer people in prisons, make them places that focus on mental health, education, and preparation for returning to society. Of course, there will always be a small number of people who can never be released because they continue to be dangerous, but one prison per state would be sufficient. There are small scale projects doing outstanding work, including treatment courts and the Mendota Juvenile Treatment Center in Wisconsin using intensive treatment programs with significant success rates.
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The US could learn a lot from countries that focus more on rehabilitation, and cultures that utilize restorative justice. If we invested in prevention and intervention (providing services & support) for first-time, non-violent offenders on a large scale, we could reduce incarceration significantly. Once there are fewer people in prisons, make them places that focus on mental health, education, and preparation for returning to society. Of course, there will always be a small number of people who can never be released because they continue to be dangerous, but one prison per state would be sufficient. There are small scale projects doing outstanding work, including treatment courts and the Mendota Juvenile Treatment Center in Wisconsin using intensive treatment programs with significant success rates.
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ArktheLark
The panopticon is what we all currently live under with the surveillance state. Police are militarized and partnered with big tech companies to have full view of everyone and everything.
This is the same country that enslaved human beings and created the 3/5ths law. The 13th amendment allows slavery for those in prison, so the private for-profit prison system exists to fill that position. Crimes of the wealthy are rarely if ever punished, but crimes of poverty are over policed and disproportionally affect Black Americans.
The US committed numerous genocides and has toppled countless democratically elected governments and established dictatorships around the world. How do we rationalize that we are justified in these systems without recognizing the loss of our humanity.
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The panopticon is what we all currently live under with the surveillance state. Police are militarized and partnered with big tech companies to have full view of everyone and everything.
This is the same country that enslaved human beings and created the 3/5ths law. The 13th amendment allows slavery for those in prison, so the private for-profit prison system exists to fill that position. Crimes of the wealthy are rarely if ever punished, but crimes of poverty are over policed and disproportionally affect Black Americans.
The US committed numerous genocides and has toppled countless democratically elected governments and established dictatorships around the world. How do we rationalize that we are justified in these systems without recognizing the loss of our humanity.
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5ivevisionstars
Abolish prisons! is a motte-and-bailey fallacy: When under scrutiny quietly modify the claim to something that's reasonable to virtually everyone (to reduce the need for prisons as much as possible. But the original slogan is never modified to better represent this moderate position that is supposedly claimed. Similarly: Abolish the police! (But meaning: introduce alternatives but also retaining some police in their current role, and Defund the police! (But meaning: fully fund mental heath, prison reform, etc. When you hear Abolish prisons, think of seeing Abolish psychiatric hospitals! but being told it's only about reducing involuntary commitment.
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Abolish prisons! is a motte-and-bailey fallacy: When under scrutiny quietly modify the claim to something that's reasonable to virtually everyone (to reduce the need for prisons as much as possible. But the original slogan is never modified to better represent this moderate position that is supposedly claimed. Similarly: Abolish the police! (But meaning: introduce alternatives but also retaining some police in their current role, and Defund the police! (But meaning: fully fund mental heath, prison reform, etc. When you hear Abolish prisons, think of seeing Abolish psychiatric hospitals! but being told it's only about reducing involuntary commitment.
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femmefataleracer
there’s a deeper dive when you talk about prison labor. and how much money is made from imprisonment in every aspect. then people would understand that prisons are more so about financial gains instead pf any type of justice. yes there are some people that can’t be trusted to be within our society, killers and rapists being amongst them. but the vast majority of those incarcerated aren’t there bc they committed these types of crimes and are held there because of lack of funds. now if you want to dive really deep go into why certain people don’t hav funds. open to discussion.
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there’s a deeper dive when you talk about prison labor. and how much money is made from imprisonment in every aspect. then people would understand that prisons are more so about financial gains instead pf any type of justice. yes there are some people that can’t be trusted to be within our society, killers and rapists being amongst them. but the vast majority of those incarcerated aren’t there bc they committed these types of crimes and are held there because of lack of funds. now if you want to dive really deep go into why certain people don’t hav funds. open to discussion.
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rukbat3
As I see it, one of the main problems with the panopticon concept (or the surveillance state) as a deterrent to crime, is that first you have to make it possible for people to live comfortably WITHOUT committing crimes. Otherwise, you will always have people making the risk/reward calculation and deciding that the risk that someone is watching is worth the reward of committing the crime. If it's a choice between stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family or letting them starve, people are going to choose theft more often than not.
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As I see it, one of the main problems with the panopticon concept (or the surveillance state) as a deterrent to crime, is that first you have to make it possible for people to live comfortably WITHOUT committing crimes. Otherwise, you will always have people making the risk/reward calculation and deciding that the risk that someone is watching is worth the reward of committing the crime. If it's a choice between stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family or letting them starve, people are going to choose theft more often than not.
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juantonio0788
the huge problem with this movements or philosophies care little to understand why there is a perception for police and prisons to exist, and care to little about what's to be done with violent criminals so when their endorsed DA's get ellected all they do is just to allow them to walk free so they can keep victimizing people. If you want to replace or abolish prisons and police give me something that gives better results and ends up with less people being victimized and not more; if you don't have it just don't touch it.
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the huge problem with this movements or philosophies care little to understand why there is a perception for police and prisons to exist, and care to little about what's to be done with violent criminals so when their endorsed DA's get ellected all they do is just to allow them to walk free so they can keep victimizing people. If you want to replace or abolish prisons and police give me something that gives better results and ends up with less people being victimized and not more; if you don't have it just don't touch it.
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yebkamin
Something that definitely needs consideration when it comes to prison reform is the age of the offenders. So many people entering prison are at ages where there brains and ability to think of future consequences hasn't developed yet.
Another thing that seems unfair is the way we continue to punish people after they have been incarcerated. Once you have served your sentence that should be it. Unless it was a crime against a child there is no reason an employer should be asking you about it once time has been served.
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Something that definitely needs consideration when it comes to prison reform is the age of the offenders. So many people entering prison are at ages where there brains and ability to think of future consequences hasn't developed yet.
Another thing that seems unfair is the way we continue to punish people after they have been incarcerated. Once you have served your sentence that should be it. Unless it was a crime against a child there is no reason an employer should be asking you about it once time has been served.
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BoundyMan
Here’s my idea, let the victims and their families have more of a say as to the punishment, just as long as it’s not cruel and unusual. The reason being our country focuses so much on the rights of the accused that we have forgotten the rights of the victims. Let’s say I steal your car, should a judge or jury, who view the car as just a car, be the ones to decide the punishment Or should the victim, whose livelihood I just ruined, be the one to decide
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Here’s my idea, let the victims and their families have more of a say as to the punishment, just as long as it’s not cruel and unusual. The reason being our country focuses so much on the rights of the accused that we have forgotten the rights of the victims. Let’s say I steal your car, should a judge or jury, who view the car as just a car, be the ones to decide the punishment Or should the victim, whose livelihood I just ruined, be the one to decide
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InDeepPudding
It infuriates me when people tout phrases like ABOLISH PRISONS and when you actually ask them to explain what we should do with criminals afterwards, you'll get a thousand different answers, most of them retaining prisons in some manner or another. it's a reductionist and essentially meaningless phrase that only serves to provoke people against your cause. It's the same thing with anarchists. I guess REFORM PRISONS doesn't get them as much attention.
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It infuriates me when people tout phrases like ABOLISH PRISONS and when you actually ask them to explain what we should do with criminals afterwards, you'll get a thousand different answers, most of them retaining prisons in some manner or another. it's a reductionist and essentially meaningless phrase that only serves to provoke people against your cause. It's the same thing with anarchists. I guess REFORM PRISONS doesn't get them as much attention.
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biggerdoofus
I've heard basically the same summary of the history of prisons before, and it doesn't seem to hold up well when checked. There was at least some usage of prisons as punishment as far back as Ancient Rome and Athens. Furthermore, it always seems to lead to a mention of Michel Foucault. If he's the main source of that telling, then people really should stop repeating it. Foucault was an excellent philosopher, but he was a lousy historian.
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I've heard basically the same summary of the history of prisons before, and it doesn't seem to hold up well when checked. There was at least some usage of prisons as punishment as far back as Ancient Rome and Athens. Furthermore, it always seems to lead to a mention of Michel Foucault. If he's the main source of that telling, then people really should stop repeating it. Foucault was an excellent philosopher, but he was a lousy historian.
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crash_course
Zuboff has like entire chapters in her Surveillance Capitalism book on how modern surveillance is different from totalitarianism and how it's better to work with a more nuanced definition (which she makes up as instrumentarianism) in order to find prevention-strategies against it
Just something that came to mind when you said your group chats, though I realize you're still talking about the state.
it feels more and more relevant.
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Zuboff has like entire chapters in her Surveillance Capitalism book on how modern surveillance is different from totalitarianism and how it's better to work with a more nuanced definition (which she makes up as instrumentarianism) in order to find prevention-strategies against it
Just something that came to mind when you said your group chats, though I realize you're still talking about the state.
it feels more and more relevant.
reply
Beryllahawk
Lots of folks pointing out the legal slavery angle. She DOES mention it, very politely - many entities benefit financially from incarceration. She mentions prison labor.
Then she also put a link to the Black American History episode that discusses the racial inequalities of the prison industrial complex.
Since this entire course is a bit more of an overview of concepts than it is a let's dig fifteen layers down kind of teaching.
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Lots of folks pointing out the legal slavery angle. She DOES mention it, very politely - many entities benefit financially from incarceration. She mentions prison labor.
Then she also put a link to the Black American History episode that discusses the racial inequalities of the prison industrial complex.
Since this entire course is a bit more of an overview of concepts than it is a let's dig fifteen layers down kind of teaching.
reply
chrislejuez
I don't think that usage of wording such as healing is productive in a judicial context. It comes across as new-age woo woo. It's too ethereal of an idea and unmeasurable when applied to psychological states. Resolution satisfaction is going to vary from person to person. Thus making it far too complex to codify into a system intended to serve millions of people with differing experiences, cultures, and moral codes.
reply
I don't think that usage of wording such as healing is productive in a judicial context. It comes across as new-age woo woo. It's too ethereal of an idea and unmeasurable when applied to psychological states. Resolution satisfaction is going to vary from person to person. Thus making it far too complex to codify into a system intended to serve millions of people with differing experiences, cultures, and moral codes.
reply
TWX1138
Prison abolition will result in the death penalty growing in scope.
The problem with prisons is that they should never be profitable, and only a cost upon a society. But we attempt to make it not costly and that has lead to the failure that we now see. Prisons should be a cost to society, and thus the nature of what constitutes an imprisonable offense should be subject to consideration.
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Prison abolition will result in the death penalty growing in scope.
The problem with prisons is that they should never be profitable, and only a cost upon a society. But we attempt to make it not costly and that has lead to the failure that we now see. Prisons should be a cost to society, and thus the nature of what constitutes an imprisonable offense should be subject to consideration.
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danielbuehner4273
Long term prisons also existed prior to the modern age. Though they were military prisons intended for prisoners of war, which the conditions for these was frequently abhorrent. This gets called out for 19th and 20th century prison ships as it was the best way to contain prisoners and not allow them to escape by throwing them in a hold and taking them out to sea.
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Long term prisons also existed prior to the modern age. Though they were military prisons intended for prisoners of war, which the conditions for these was frequently abhorrent. This gets called out for 19th and 20th century prison ships as it was the best way to contain prisoners and not allow them to escape by throwing them in a hold and taking them out to sea.
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oasntet
If policing and imprisoning worked, how would we know Neither system has allowances for success - no police department is able to say we did it, we solved crime, I guess it's time to shut down. And if prisons deterred crime, why is there still crime
It's almost as if the purpose of this system is unrelated to the goal of reducing or ending crime.
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If policing and imprisoning worked, how would we know Neither system has allowances for success - no police department is able to say we did it, we solved crime, I guess it's time to shut down. And if prisons deterred crime, why is there still crime
It's almost as if the purpose of this system is unrelated to the goal of reducing or ending crime.
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francobaudino6938
Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell, explores the question at the core of this video. Are human beings able to be reformed Or are they flawed from the beginning and society needs to deal with the non-idealities that results
Whatever you believe, the book will deepen your understanding of your own position. Happy thinking!
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Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell, explores the question at the core of this video. Are human beings able to be reformed Or are they flawed from the beginning and society needs to deal with the non-idealities that results
Whatever you believe, the book will deepen your understanding of your own position. Happy thinking!
reply
chrispinzon4752
Prisons should focus more on rehabilitation through education and work training, but they should still exist. As we've seen over the last 4 to 8 years when DAs refuse to prosecute, crime rises. So much so that many large cities have stopped reporting crime altogether, which artificially lowered the crime rate.
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Prisons should focus more on rehabilitation through education and work training, but they should still exist. As we've seen over the last 4 to 8 years when DAs refuse to prosecute, crime rises. So much so that many large cities have stopped reporting crime altogether, which artificially lowered the crime rate.
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crash_course
RE: prison industrial complex
Disappointed that you didn't mention at all how slavery in the US is still (2025) legal for incarcerated people, and that because labor by prisoners is a profitable industry, there are so many private prisons that exist and parole is repeatadly denied for non-violent offences too
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RE: prison industrial complex
Disappointed that you didn't mention at all how slavery in the US is still (2025) legal for incarcerated people, and that because labor by prisoners is a profitable industry, there are so many private prisons that exist and parole is repeatadly denied for non-violent offences too
reply
JaeJaeG
0: 01 No, I believe they should not. I believe babies are born innocent, therefore, I believe the focus should be on truly helping people recover, re-form, rehabilitate, etc- even if that means they are institutionalized somewhere for life, in some cases. Ok, now I'll watch the video with an open mind, too!
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0: 01 No, I believe they should not. I believe babies are born innocent, therefore, I believe the focus should be on truly helping people recover, re-form, rehabilitate, etc- even if that means they are institutionalized somewhere for life, in some cases. Ok, now I'll watch the video with an open mind, too!
reply
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